Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,907 Year: 4,164/9,624 Month: 1,035/974 Week: 362/286 Day: 5/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Star nosed moles, and biblical kinds
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 15 of 20 (91796)
03-11-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rei
09-25-2003 5:16 PM


Most mutation are not harmful
Rei writes:
Because most mutations are harmful
Most mutations are neutral! The arc-organisms had a lot of additional information on their genomes. There were different paths to lose information, without dying directly. It goes on until the genetic material becomes irreducable; a left-hand wall.
Thus, organisms are designed to mutate at specified speeds (which may or may not have variations on the mutation rates of different genes), which are their optimal mutation rates.
Yes, it depends of the type of genome of a particular specie. That's why the scenario isn't that inappropriate.
The Permian explosion took, what, 50 million years? You're talking about 50 million years vs. 50 years - a million-fold difference in the number of generations. In "a few decades", you'd get what, 2 generations of elephants.
Degeneration can not go on infinitely / in eternity, the species are now more or less in equilibrium. So, you don't have to assume that there will appear 2 new kinds of elephants in the next 50 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rei, posted 09-25-2003 5:16 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Loudmouth, posted 03-11-2004 5:07 PM Saviourmachine has replied

  
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 18 of 20 (92943)
03-17-2004 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Loudmouth
03-11-2004 5:07 PM


Re: Most mutation are not harmful
Nobody studied it. The hypothesis itself is dismissed beforehand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Loudmouth, posted 03-11-2004 5:07 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Loudmouth, posted 03-17-2004 4:08 PM Saviourmachine has replied

  
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 20 of 20 (93479)
03-20-2004 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Loudmouth
03-17-2004 4:08 PM


Evidence from biogeographic and fossil records
Loudmouth writes:
This is what we call an ad hoc hypothesis. Making up untested, and sometimes untestable, hypotheses to support a larger theory or to refute contradictory evidence.
It's not untestable. Hypotheses are often formulated to match within a larger framework by the way. I shall mention a few options to test:
Option 1. Try to generate a common ancestor with extrapolating the occurence of mutations towards the past. If there exist many genes in species without remains in species with the same ancestor, then degeneration is falsified. (Many new genes in evolution terms)
Option 2. There was one man on the arc, and several woman. The 'mitochondrial Eve' would be older than the 'X-chromosome Adam'.
Option 3. Try to develop a theory in which molecular and fossil clocks are ticking at the same rate.
These and other estimates are compatible with those known from limited biogeographic and fossil records.
You've choosen option 3 if I'm reading well. So, you should add this evidence.
Else, I don't know what you're saying:
  • The genomes are different
  • The differences are caused by mutations
  • The genomic mutations distances are inexplainable by degeneration?
Genetic studies can corroborate, through mutation rates (not degeneration) that D. melanogaster shared a common ancestor with D. simulans 5.4 million years ago, and 62.9 million years ago with the rest of the fruit fly subgenus Drosophila.
Or are you saying that there is a hierarchy, evolution followed by further evolution? But degeneration can be followed by further degeneration, too.
Unless you think that ... and random mutation was involved, this isn't exactly consistent with the arc-organism hypothesis.
Random mutation is involved, it accounts for degeneration.
If I had to defend evolutionism, I would choose option 1 to attack, by the way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Loudmouth, posted 03-17-2004 4:08 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024