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Author | Topic: Does God Really Exist??? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Good systematic theology + old testament and new testament survey courses would be recomended. Except for the fact that I just don't care all that much, because it's all made up.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
I would suggest that you be more careful with what you put into quotation marks. "It is finished" and "It is accomplished" can not both be direct, accurate quotes.
In English, the connotation is somewhat different. I would not say the meanings are exactly the same. I have no idea bout the translation from the Greek. Whatever the translation it seems impossible to be sure what "it" is. Perhaps there is more that can give a clue.
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neil88 Inactive Member |
Creation man
You are asking : "Does god really exist". Firstly, which god are we talking about? Also, please note that in science it is not 100% certain that the BiG bang happened, although evidence points in that direction. And, life did not begin with the big bang. The origin of life was a separate development. The big bang is thought to have created the universe ( matter etc ), and the universe COULD exist without life.
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neil88 Inactive Member |
Quote :
"we cannot PROVE that God does exist". Quote :"There is far more scientific evidence to weigh in support of there being a God than not." I don't agree with this second statement, but does your evidence prove there is a god ? No (as per your first quote above ). So we still have no conclusive proof if god exists or does not exist. Similarly there is no conclusive proof that UFO's exist or do not exist. So you believe in a supernatural being as a matter of faith.
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SRO2  Inactive Member |
Not only that, but if god does exist, who created him? Isn't the age old argument that someone "must" have created the universe. Well, then it stands reason, if the universe can't just have "always been there"...then neither can god just have "always been there". It can't be one way and not the other, and it can't be both ways.
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Angeldust Inactive Member |
I can't wait to move this summer. It means that I will access to the net without a nanny. Won't let me see that page again.....
So if this is off-topic, I'm not trying to stray, I just thought I could provide a greek translation of the word for you. The greek word used is Teleo (nice english transliteration anyway) it means: "To make an end or accomplishment, to complete anything, not merely to end it, but to bring it to perfection or it's destined goal, to carry it through." Also in the greek grammer it is in the Perfect, indicative, passive tense. Indicative simply means a statement of fact, passive means that the subject (IT in this case) is receiving the action (IT didn't do anything), the interesting one is that the perfect tense (English doesn't have an exact equivalent for it) in Greek it doesn't simply mean that it happened, but holds the meaning that it happened and has continual reprecussions in the future. "It" is finished but whatever "It" is will resonate into the future.
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Zurahn Inactive Member |
I have some reasoning I'd like to see if anyone can dispute:
The typical answer to 'Who created God?' is 'God has always been and always shall be'. Now, for something to have ALWAYS existed, then it has no beginning. So let's take a miscellaneous event, say the creation of the Universe by God, there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity--for anything to exist, it MUST have a beginning, perhaps not an end, but at the least a beginning.
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:æ:  Suspended Member (Idle past 7215 days) Posts: 423 Joined: |
Zurahn writes:
I'm not completely convinced that this is true. "Always" is a measure of time, and more specifically it is the measure of ALL real time values. If time has a beginning, yet something exists for ALL real time values, then it would seem to me that this thing, whatever it is, would also have a beginning with time, and still have always existed.
Now, for something to have ALWAYS existed, then it has no beginning. So let's take a miscellaneous event, say the creation of the Universe by God, there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity...
I think what you're trying to say here is that in your estimation the Creation event would mark the end to the infinity that existed before it, and that this is in contradicition with the definition of infinity. If I've misrepresented your position, then clarify. Going off of my current interpretation of your argument, though, it is flawed in a few ways. First, the interval would still be unbounded in the past, and so it would not have any actually finite measure. In other words, if you picked a point on a plane and drew a ray outward from that point, the ray can indeed go on for infinity even though it has one endpoint. The creation event you describe is but one endpoint which does not constrain the infinity to a finite value. In addition, it's not impossible for infinitely many finite intervals to exist between the endpoints of a larger finite interval if the larger interval is continuous (think: space-time continuum). The easy way to understand this is to understand that between the number 1 and 2, there are infinitely many fractions greater than 1 but less than 2. For example: 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, 1.11111, 1.111111, etc.... 2. [This message has been edited by ::, 04-28-2004]
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
there would be an infinite amount of time prior to that event, thereby it, and all else, could never come to be as there is no end to infinity Not neccessarily true. For instance, the set of all positive whole numbers is infinite, but only in one direction. It starts at 1 and goes on forever. Rays are geometric figures that are infinite in one direction, starting from an origin. They're exactly one-half as long as a line passing through the same origin, even though they're both infinite. Whether or not that origin is the end of the line, or the beginning, rather depends on where you stand to look. It would be possible for the time before the universe to extend infinitely into the past. Another explanation is that time is local to the universe, and therefore, there is no time before the beginning of the universe.
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Zurahn Inactive Member |
That is what I was trying to get across, and your argument is very in depth and I'm not sure if I picked everything up correctly, it seems to me that your response leads back to the idea that there is a beginning of God.
quote: For if there is a beginning of time, for it to exist from it's start, then it would still have to be created under some capacity because that would be a beginning, which gives the Universe just the same possibility to come from nothing should such a being as God be able to.
quote: I understand this and have thought of a ray of light, which is why I said it may not actually have an end, but must have a beginning or it wouldn't reach a point. And for time to only be local to the Universe, how can anything act beyond the bounds of time? That would be a frozen image, would it not? Also consider where memory would begin--would there not have to be a point where you do not remember anything prior? That is a key component why it seems without a beginning nothing would come to pass.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And for time to only be local to the Universe, how can anything act beyond the bounds of time? That would be a frozen image, would it not? Don't think of time as the thing that lets things happen. Think of time as the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
Think of time as the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Why would that be needed in a chance universe? What's the point in "time". Time itself indicates that God exists. --> Boy am I on topic.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
For if there is a beginning of time, for it to exist from it's start, then it would still have to be created under some capacity because that would be a beginning, which gives the Universe just the same possibility to come from nothing should such a being as God be able to.
That really does make no sense. For time to have a cause then that cause must exist before time. However there can be nothing before the beginning of time - the concept is self-contradictory. It follows then that time cannot have a cause.
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Zurahn Inactive Member |
If there's no time except within the Universe, and going by your logic that time keeps everything from happening at once, how then about Heaven and interactions there without time? There would be none as there would be no interval between each others. This would basically send all spirits into purgatory. Also Hell, assuming it would just be pain, would be constant ongoing pain that would basically cancel itself out because it would be perfectly equal as it all happens at once.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall never pass".
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