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Author Topic:   Nairobi prostitutes; a vaccine for ID theory?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3960 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 12 (64172)
11-03-2003 1:15 PM


While researching STDs in Nairobi, a doctor/scientist made the startling discovery that a small number of prostitutes appeared immune to HIV.

They discovered that their blood and vaginal fluid contained anti-bodies which would attack and destroy HIV. At first they thought this may be a case of exposure leading to immunity (natural vaccination). But they soon learned the immune prostitutes were related, which lead them to research a family. It turns out the family itself was pretty much immune to the horrific casualty rate other nairobians are suffering due to HIV.

This suggested that a mutation occured in one of their family ancestor's immune system, giving that person (and most descendants) a much more aggressive immune system than the rest of us lowly humans and an immunity to HIV.

What they are learning is that their "new" immune system works different than ours in that the cell which gets invaded by HIV (and as it turns out any other invader) sends a "description" of the binding site to the immune system, so that anti-bodies may be created "keyed" for that new invader. Thus instead of the slow hit and miss systems most humans have, each of their cells are "spies" which sacrifice themselves to give them the blueprints of victory over infection.

Thankfully we may get to use those blueprints to create vaccines for the rest of us. And as this family intermingles with others (and at this point it is already quite large), this new immune system may become common to many humans.

Once again, we see change occuring in an evolutionary "pattern" as a mutation in one family has incidentally made it tougher, not weaker, and is being selected for survival due to natural events.

At no time were investigators aided by ID theory. In fact, if Behe's work on the immune system was followed (search for why the prostitutes gained immunity to determine who created that immunity) we would likely not be as far as we are today.

I might add work would certainly have been hindered by the morality wrapped up with ID. After all the only end purpose which could be shown is for the creation of a group of super-prostitutes who sire more super-prostitute children from their illegitimate (and unprotected) sexual encounters.

Or will ID now bring in the idea that the devil has his own designs? It appears in this case the devil may be in the details.

Any ID theorist out there want to show what fruit ID would have offered us in this whole scenario over its evo counterpart? Please also address specified complexity, and Behe's notions that immune systems could not have evolved to their current state of complexity.

------------------
holmes


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Mike Doran, posted 11-04-2003 3:32 PM Silent H has responded
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-06-2003 5:03 AM Silent H has responded

    
Mike Doran
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 12 (64401)
11-04-2003 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
11-03-2003 1:15 PM


The Gaia theory of pre cellular evolution, as it pertains to cirrus cloud dynamics, would point out that an symbiotic relationship between cloud based nucleotides and land based nucleotides has existed for billions of years. Therefore, one isn't going to do in the other. That means that virus nucleotides are going to survive and then immune system based nucleotides are going to survive . . . both. And condition that leads to an Andraumada Strain would wipe out Gaia's surface/marine conductivity modulations and hence result in the entire region where the pathogen existed to experience chaotic inputs of climate without modulation, hence making the virus extinct. Virus can rise to clouds and more heavy cellular or more complex and heavy precellular life could not, whereas virus particles would have becuase of their size no ability to provide a conductivity change below. W/out the virus, the more complex life wouldn't have cirrus modulating ability, and hence would again wipe out living earth climate feedbacks.

BTW, I am an athiest who does his best passing on god in a secular world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 11-03-2003 1:15 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 11-04-2003 5:23 PM Mike Doran has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3960 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 3 of 12 (64418)
11-04-2003 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Mike Doran
11-04-2003 3:32 PM


No offense, but if this was a reply to my post I do not get it. It appears to argue for the necessity of pathogens and immune systems, but has nothing to do with mechanisms.

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Mike Doran, posted 11-04-2003 3:32 PM Mike Doran has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Mike Doran, posted 11-05-2003 11:00 AM Silent H has responded

    
Mike Doran
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 12 (64532)
11-05-2003 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
11-04-2003 5:23 PM


My message, which I am not sure you understand, is that while IDers are incorrect to assert that God has created a design, are perhaps metaphorically correct in that these biological relationships are part of a young science AND part of an intelligent design. My view is that the whole earth, life itself, is a modulating reaction to chaotic inputs to climate. That global life existed like this before there was cellular life, and that resulting symbiotic relationships in cellular life have this design charactristic in relation to a living earth. Macro evolutionists who fail to see this order are IMHO more off than the creationist, who at least recognizes the pattern and the questions the patterns raise. Of course, I don't associate the patterns with God, but at least I see them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 11-04-2003 5:23 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 11-05-2003 12:50 PM Mike Doran has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3960 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 12 (64538)
11-05-2003 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mike Doran
11-05-2003 11:00 AM


mike writes:

My message, which I am not sure you understand,

Actually your description meant I understood it quite well. I am familiar with general Gaia theories, and am quite taken by much of Margulis' work on symbiosis. I will admit I have not seen it extended to climate patterns, but I got that that is where you were going.

My question remains. How does this address my point. Was there some weather/climate pattern over Nairobi you can point to that created this new mutation in a human immune system?

I am certainly willing to buy a symbiotic relationship between parts within a human body allowed for the rise of a new mutation (though this appears to have been purely a genetic mutation). However, the best paradign for how this immunity arose, and the "methodology" best used to track it, was evolutionary and "methodological naturalism".

By all means if you have a "soft" ID position, and want to take a crack at an answer, be my guest. If you simply want to state your Gaia theory in general, you should use a different thread.

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mike Doran, posted 11-05-2003 11:00 AM Mike Doran has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Mike Doran, posted 11-05-2003 2:16 PM Silent H has responded

    
Mike Doran
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 12 (64559)
11-05-2003 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
11-05-2003 12:50 PM


Well of course there wouldn't be CURRENTLY, on these time scales, selective pressures against HIV becoming the "Andromeda" strain unless and until the human race died off--leaving no host for the virus. So I guess what I am saying is that neither virus or host IN GENERAL will go to the extremes of extinction because of their "purpose". Now, you may have seen below in the Living Earth thread the discussion on carp and how the virus was temperature responsive. Why? BTW, here is an interesting link on Africa:

http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/otd/otdglobal.html

But to answer your narrowing point, may I ask a question back. Are you familiar w/ Joejohn MacFadden's book on "Quantum Selection"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 11-05-2003 12:50 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 11-05-2003 3:13 PM Mike Doran has responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3960 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 12 (64565)
11-05-2003 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mike Doran
11-05-2003 2:16 PM


mike writes:

Are you familiar w/ Joejohn MacFadden's book on "Quantum Selection"?

Nope. But I guess I'll check into it now.

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Mike Doran, posted 11-05-2003 2:16 PM Mike Doran has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Mike Doran, posted 11-06-2003 1:16 PM Silent H has not yet responded

    
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (64688)
11-06-2003 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
11-03-2003 1:15 PM


Holmes, has anybody made a scientific paper about this HIV resistance case? I am curious.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 11-03-2003 1:15 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Coragyps, posted 11-06-2003 8:08 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Silent H, posted 11-06-2003 2:37 PM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5387
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 12 (64694)
11-06-2003 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Andya Primanda
11-06-2003 5:03 AM


I wondered the same thing, Andya, and Googled this one up: Fowke, et al., Lancet. 1996 Nov 16;348(9038):1347-51. The abstract is at
Pubmed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-06-2003 5:03 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

    
Mike Doran
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 12 (64745)
11-06-2003 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
11-05-2003 3:13 PM


The jest of the book is that mutations may not be all random, and some of the modulation may occur at a quantum level. This is an interesting biological mystery of how you can have a behavior in the area where cause and event has not been show yet leads to a determinative result. McFadden is a MD-and the book is a systems book w/ co-authors from physics world. This tied back to gaia.

BTW, I have an interesting story and comment over at the living earth thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 11-05-2003 3:13 PM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-06-2003 1:49 PM Mike Doran has not yet responded

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 12 (64755)
11-06-2003 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mike Doran
11-06-2003 1:16 PM


I think the book you're referring to is "Quantum Evolution" by JohnJoe McFadden, not "Quantum Selection". I have it on my shelf to read as soon as I've finished "Koba the Dread"

PE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mike Doran, posted 11-06-2003 1:16 PM Mike Doran has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3960 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 12 (64767)
11-06-2003 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Andya Primanda
11-06-2003 5:03 AM


Coragyps beat me to the punch on one article. But if you have cable and get the science channel you can also see the whole story on "Genehunters". That show has the original doctor (whose name escapes me at this moment) explaining how everything unfolded and you get a good look at the conditions these prostitutes work under, as well as the family which has essentially escaped the HIV plague in Nairobi.

I am finding that show a valuable resource against ID arguments. Its hard to argue against solid results from methodological naturalism using... or discovering more evidence for... a genetically driven evolutionary paradigm.

Maybe the science channel should be picketed by the Discovery Institute until "Designhunters" is aired, showing all the wonderful medical discoveries being made once scientists abandoned the search for "how" and began searching for "who".

I'm sure it'll look a lot like those 700club segments where sick people talk about how faith, and not science, cured their undiagnosable/untreatable cancer.

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-06-2003 5:03 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

    
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