How determined are you?

In reponse to a request from nwr I've posted this hereThere is, as far as we know, only matter in various forms, energy in various forms, laws of nature of various types. The laws of nature are taken to be immutable. And matter and energy simply conform to the laws of nature in predictable (if yet unknown) ways. That's all the evidence we have about the universe.If that is the case, the arrangement of every atom in the universe at this precise moment is a result only: of the interaction between the atoms themselves + the energy acting upon and within them + the laws of nature which caused them to be arranged in the particular pattern they held at the precise moment I mentioned a minute ago... things have moved on a little since then The arrangement of every atom / condition of every piece of energy at this instant, is a direct result of the arrangement in the instant before. IOW, whatever the arrangement was then was such so as to ensure that the arrangement in the next instant would be the one that would exist. There is nothing outside matter/energy/law to cause it to be any other way.If every arrangement of atoms/energy at any point in time is inevitably the result of some prior arrangement then we can go back until we arrive at the initial conditions which set it all off. These initial conditions can be picked arbitarily. 1 second ago, 1 year ago, a million years ago. It doesn't matter. At whatever point we draw a line, all subsequent arrangements of atoms;/energy were going to be whatever they transpired to be.Thus, there is no such thing as independant thought or action. Every thought or action was going to happen from whatever arrangement existed at say, a million years ago.This is what I call Determinism. If Determinisn is the way it is, then there is no absolute thing as you. 'You' are just an particular arrangement of matter/energy/laws - and every thought and action of yours is not yours - it's just another inevitable arrangement of atoms/energy - which was bound to happen from whatever initial conditions existed (whenever it is you draw a start line). Similarily, whatever thought you may have tomorrow is going to happen as a result of the arrangement of atoms/energy as they are nowTopics for discussion:If this brand of Determinism is the reality, how could it be that blind initial conditions resulted in a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws (us) arriving at the conclusion that they are a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws.If folk think everything isn't pre-determined along the lines laid out above, on what basis to they hold the view they do?This message has been edited by iano, 01-Nov-2005 04:09 PM

Iano, I read this O.P. with interest...it certainly sounds as if young Guidosoft has got your wheels spinning...but I find the focus a bit murky and obtuse. What IS this topic about? Is it quantum physics? Is it determinism revived? Is it philosophy?At this point I would not have a clue where to put it. Can you rewrite it and clarify the direction that you want to go with it?

Dunno if that helps Phat but it's a kind of a brain-twister no matter what happens. I've no idea where it should go but seeing as determinism is a belief system then Faith and Belief would be appropriate I guess.There's a couple of folk who replied to the original so I guess there is enough to get it going in itselfCheersIano

Thread copied to the How determined are you? thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.