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Author Topic:   peer reviewed paper: WTC downed via demolitions
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 143 (259099)
11-12-2005 1:15 PM


Sorry! - Deseret News
What do folks around here think?
This message has been edited by randman, 11-12-2005 01:56 PM

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 143 (259105)
11-12-2005 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-12-2005 1:15 PM


That there's too many questions that the official story doesn't answer. Why did Bush claim to be watching the first tower impact on TV when the media didn't have Tv coverage until after the first impact? Why did certain political figures recieve advanced warning of the attacks?
Why were the towers so greatly damaged by the impact of their jets, but the Pentagon was so lightly damaged?
And now this? Yeah, there's something fishy here. There doesn't seem to be any reason to conclude that the offical story is true aside from it being the official story.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 143 (259106)
11-12-2005 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-12-2005 1:15 PM


bogus
I watched the towers collapse and they started at the plane level not at the bottom. Once the top starts falling it lands on and collapses each lower floor.
9-11 Research: 9-11 WTC Videos
There is just no way this is consistent with another set of explosions at the bottom.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 143 (259107)
11-12-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-12-2005 1:15 PM


presumably your point is that it was a "peer reviewed" article?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 143 (259111)
11-12-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
11-12-2005 1:34 PM


Re: bogus
I watched the towers collapse and they started at the plane level not at the bottom.
At the whole plane level, yeah.
Why would the whole level collapse simultaneously? Why wouldn't one side go first and buckle out, tipping the top of the tower off? That's how rigid-wall box structures collapse, after all.
I think there's an argument to be made about demo charges being in the right place - right where the planes hit - but the opinion of many physicists is that the near-vertical collapse of the tower is much more consistent with simultaneous explosive severing of supports, not the inevitable, uneven, and random collapse of fire-weakened rigid walls.
Take a basic cardboard box and put weight on it until it collapses. You'll see that one side of the box will collapse first and tip the weights off. You won't find that the box will simply contract like a concertina, except maybe one out of a bazillion tries. And remember that both towers collapsed in exactly the same way.
Consider this - two planes hit, three towers collapsed. But a third plane failed its attempt. We've been told that the target was the White House but who knows for sure? WTC 7 may simply have been an unhit target that they collapsed anyway to conceal the conspiracy.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 143 (259115)
11-12-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
11-12-2005 1:51 PM


Re: bogus
The planes impacted to the central column of the towers -- where the structure was.
And burned that structure with jet fuel for an accelerant. When the central structure collapsed at that point it brought the whole upper section down onto that floor level.
Looking at the videos you see the upper sections falling with a slight skew, due to the asymmetric failure at this point.
Watch this video (quicktime, 10 second clip)
Page not found - 9-11 Research
After that impact the lower floors "pancake" one into the other as their individual structure is overstressed by the impact loading from above.
Each of those lower floors would actually act to re-center the load failure pattern so that it would be a columnular failure and not a topple failure because they were designed for containing the columnular stresses of high winds, but not for the impact load from above.
Your carboard box model is wrong for several reasons - the structure is on the outside instead of at the core and you don't have any intermediate floors. At best your model would represent one floor, and you do see the windows being blown out as the floors collapse.
The third tower had it's foundation blown out by the impact of the other towers when they hit ground level -- look at the energy that was released in those videos.
Were there likely other explosions? Yeah, there were probably some transformers that exploded when they were overloaded by the failed electrical system upstairs, but they wouldn't have caused the towers to fall.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 143 (259116)
11-12-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
11-12-2005 1:51 PM


Re: bogus
reichstag much?

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 143 (259117)
11-12-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
11-12-2005 2:17 PM


Re: bogus
How about the other tower?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 143 (259128)
11-12-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
11-12-2005 2:17 PM


Re: bogus
The planes impacted to the central column of the towers -- where the structure was.
The load-bearing portion of the towers were the walls, not the center. The center was just the elevator shafts and services.
Your carboard box model is wrong for several reasons - the structure is on the outside instead of at the core and you don't have any intermediate floors.
Again I refer you to the structure of the WTC towers - the load was borne by the exterior walls, not the center structure. I chose my box example because the WTC towers were exactly like cardboard boxes - rigid-wall containers with no internal load-bearing. From the wiki article:
quote:
To solve the problem of wind sway or vibration in the construction of the towers, chief engineer Leslie Robertson took a then unusual approach - instead of bracing the buildings corner-to-corner or using internal walls, the towers were essentially hollow steel tubes. Each tower thus contained 240 vertical steel columns called Vierendeel trusses around the outside of the building, which were bound to each other using ordinary steel trusses. In addition, 10,000 dampers were included in the structure. With a strong shell such as this, the internal floors could be simply light steel and concrete with internal walls not needed for structural integrity, creating a tower that was extremely light for its size. This method of construction also meant that the twin towers had the world's highest load-bearing walls. The exterior steel supports were spaced 22 inches (559 mm) apart, and narrow windows filled the gaps in between.
So, again, the jet-fuel argument doesn't explain to me why the tower collapsed so vertically; the heat of the fire would have had to have been weakening the exterior walls exactly symmetrically in order to collapse them all the way around at once. That would have required the plane to have impacted dead-center, and it didn't. The video shows that it was closer to one corner than the other.
If the tower fell from the burning, the top should have toppled off as the exterior load-bearing trusses collapsed differentially. The only way for a vertical concertina collapse to happen - twice - would be from a controlled demolition.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 143 (259129)
11-12-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
11-12-2005 2:19 PM


Re: bogus
No idea what you're talking about.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 11 of 143 (259134)
11-12-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
11-12-2005 3:03 PM


Re: bogus
crashfrog writes:
The load-bearing portion of the towers were the walls, not the center. The center was just the elevator shafts and services.
This is from http://www.tms.org/...ournals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html, but you can find the same information in many places:
Each tower was 64 m square, standing 411 m above street level and 21 m below grade. This produces a height-to-width ratio of 6.8. The total weight of the structure was roughly 500,000 t, but wind load, rather than the gravity load, dominated the design. The building is a huge sail that must resist a 225 km/h hurricane. It was designed to resist a wind load of 2 kPa”a total of lateral load of 5,000 t.
In order to make each tower capable of withstanding this wind load, the architects selected a lightweight “perimeter tube” design consisting of 244 exterior columns of 36 cm square steel box section on 100 cm centers (see Figure 3). This permitted windows more than one-half meter wide. Inside this outer tube there was a 27 m 40 m core, which was designed to support the weight of the tower. It also housed the elevators, the stairwells, and the mechanical risers and utilities.
In other words, the walls primary responsibility was to resist wind load. The central core's primary responsibility was to support the weight of the tower.
--Percy

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 143 (259140)
11-12-2005 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
11-12-2005 3:03 PM


Re: bogus
hitler burned the reichstag to fuel his revolution.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 143 (259146)
11-12-2005 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
11-12-2005 3:03 PM


Re: bogus
There appears to be some discrepancy on how the towers were actually constructed between {your\percy\my} sources.
Let's look at how relevant it is.
I think we can all agree that the towers were hit by a plane, that the plane caused a massive fireball inside the towers at the floor level of impact, and that there were massive amounts of fuel in the plane at impact (the flights were chosen so that would be the case).
This fuel caused the fireball to be extremely {hotter\fiercer\bigger} than anything that had been considered in the design of the structure.
I think we could also agree that the plane was likely stopped by the central core of elevator shafts and stairwells, so that the fireball would have been pretty well centered even though the impact came from one side.
I think we can also agree that the design of the towers to withstand significant side loads is born out by the virtual lack of any visible sway in the towers when the planes impacted - this impact force was absorbed by the structure -- and that this was a pretty significant load.
Based on this I think we can agree that the tower easily absorbed any tendency to sway during failure because the design stress loads for this failure condition were so much higher than were experienced: the sway was easily contained by the design.
Now we come to the vertical load structure design.
Engineers are loath to spend one dime more on structure than is absolutely necessary once the design conditions are satisfied. They'll consider the different possible modes of failure to see what the structure is likely to need to be able to withstand given normal conditions, and they'll add factors of safety to ensure that the design conditions encompass as many of the possible failure modes as possible, but after that they will minimize any excess possible.
And they will design each floor to meet those requirements. The strength of the bearing components for floor 27 will be less than for floor 26 because they will have 1 less floor to support. The engineers would have taken as much weight out of each floor as possible to keep this structure from becoming impossibly big at the bottom while still keeping within the established design parameters.
I think we can assume that weight bearing strength safety factors were at their minimum, and that the structure was weakest in vertical load.
Wind load would induce a bending load, similar to a cantelevered beam with a constant load along its length, and would increase proportional to the square of the distance from the top (quadratic).
This loading is countered by a whole structure moment of inertia, while weight bearing load is {columnular\compression} load countered by the total cross-sectional area of the support structure. The moment of inertia is made up of increments of cross-sectional area multiplied by the square of the distance from the neutral axis (the center in this case) integrated across the whole structure, so concentrating the windload bearing structure in the steel at the outside perimeter makes sense.
The vertical load bearing strength is just the total cross-sectional area of all the supports - outer shell plus inner core, and it doesn't really matter where it is (as long as it is symetrical). If each floor weighed the same this load would increase proportional to the distance from the top (linear). Each floor would be increasing in weight due to the structure required, so there would be a portion proportional to the square of the distance from the top (quadratic).
So we can comfortably assume that the vertical structure was designed to support the remaining height of the tower above it with some factor of safety, say 2.0 to 3.0 for the sake of the argument.
Now when the structure starts to fail ...
(1) First, lets assume that it starts in the core area on the side with the impact. This area would collapse bringing the upper floor core structure down into the collapsed area and putting all the remaining column bearing load onto the perimeter steel. This would overload the perimeter steel causing a fairly symetrical pattern of failure of the perimeter at that floor. The upper section then crashes into the floor and the impact overloads the structure of the floor below causing it to fail, ibid next floor, ibid all the way to the basement.
Initially the top would appear to fall fairly straight down as this occurs because the initial failure is central and the perimeter contains the swaying loads. The rest of the failure would be floor by floor pancaking in line with the building.
(Impact loads here are much higher than static loads because they have the energy of the falling upper floors as well as the weight.)
(B) Next lets assume that the failure starts in one outside wall or corner. This area would collapse bringing the upper floor side structure down into the collapsed area and putting all the remaining column bearing load onto the remaining perimeter steel and the core area. This would cause an initial asymetrical pattern of failure of the perimeter at that floor at the moment of failure. The center of the impact load of that floor onto the one below would be closer to the center though, because that is where the mass is centered from above. Each floor would then act to bring the center of impact closer to the center of the tower.
Initially the top would appear to fall to one side as this occurs because the initial failure is not central, but then the failure would move to the center as the perimeter contains the swaying loads. The second or third floor may still be asymetric, but the rest of the failure would be floor by floor pancaking in line with the building.
Looking at the videos it appears that the top of the south tower falls to one side at the start of the collapse, and then each floor pancakes, while the north tower seems to fall much more in column, moving slightly to one side as the top section contacts the floor before each lower floor pancakes.
The only way for a vertical concertina collapse to happen - twice - would be from a controlled demolition.
Set at the level of the plane impact and nowhere else, or it doesn't match the observed failure. That they would be able to plan to that level of detail and be able to coordinate it with people flying the plane that don't know how to land, to say nothing about zeroing in on one specific floor, it is more improbable (imh(sa)o) than a creatortionista ever getting a probability calculation right.
I've spent way to much time on this.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 14 of 143 (259148)
11-12-2005 6:12 PM


A Brief Examination on the Basis of Style
Steven E. Jones apparently *is* an actual professor at BYU. Here's a link to something he posted on the Internet, part of a longer on-line discussion from a couple months ago: Seminar on WTC-7 collapse and other 9-11 anomalies.
If you look at Professor Jones's article (Steven Jones) that was "accepted for peer-reviewed publication" (according to the Deseret Morning News), it doesn't bear much resemblence to the structure or tone of a scientific paper. It reads like what it is, a lengthy argument for a particular point of view with frequent overt appeals to common sense and rationality.
Professor Jones has apparently aligned himself with the conspiracy theorists at WTC7.net the hidden story of Building 7: The Collapse of WTC Building 7, which focuses more on building 7 rather than the towers.
Professor Jones doesn't examine currently accepted scientific views to show why they should be questioned or how they should be reinterpreted. He instead ignores these views and quotes from newspaper articles from shortly after the disaster, e.g.:
A New York Times article entitled “Engineers are baffled over the collapse of 7 WTC; Steel members have been partly evaporated,” provides relevant data.
Experts said no building like it [WTC7], a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire. (Glanz, 2001; emphasis added.)
The list of references includes little of a scientific nature.
Professor Jones appears to be trying to give a scientific gloss to another hair-brained conspiracy theory.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 15 of 143 (259152)
11-12-2005 6:53 PM


Controlled Demolition
This is from Wikipedia's article on demolition:
A building takes several weeks to be prepared for implosion. All items of value, such as copper wiring, are stripped from a building. Some materials such as glass that can form deadly projectiles, insulation that can cover a wide area, and other materials also must be removed. Selected columns are drilled and nitroglycerin and TNT are placed in the holes. Smaller columns and walls are wrapped in explosive cables. The goal is to use as few explosives as possible, and only a few floors are rigged with explosives. The areas with explosive are covered in thick plastic and fencing to absorb flying debris.
If WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7 all collapsed from explosive demolition, then even assuming they skipped the gathering of items of value, how did the extensive preparations escape notice? And why wouldn't they lay the explosives so that the buildings fell over into adjacent buildings, instead of falling as they did pretty much into their own foundations?
Of course, once you realize that the moon landings were faked on a television sound stage you can see how reasonable this particular conspiracy theory is.
One side note: I was completely unaware of how widespread this has become. For example, Google "controlled demolition" and most hits will be related to 9/11.
Another side note: I doubt many conspiracy aficionados have ever been dissuaded from their favorite conspiracy theory. Like Razd I've already spent far too much time on this, but I have this incredulous fascination with the fact that there are actually people out there who believe this crap. Ah, well, if not for people like this how would the flim-flam artists make a living?
--Percy

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