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Author Topic:   The Inerrancy of the Bible
36Christians
Inactive Junior Member


Message 1 of 301 (175459)
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


We are a Bible class at a Christian high school. We are opening a discussion defending the inerrancy and infallibility of the Word of God. This discussion is open to anyone who wishes to participate.

It is our stand that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is completely perfect. Even though the Bible may seem to contain errors and contradictions, it is our steadfast belief that if one would study the passage in question thoroughly, his study would only prove that the Bible is without error. This is our belief because of two reasons: 1) In John 17:17 the Bible states that God’s Word is truth. 2) We have never found an error or contradiction in the Bible.

We are opening this discussion to prove these reasons. We are ready to receive and refute any apparent contradiction or error in the King James Bible.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2005 10:35 AM 36Christians has responded
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 Message 6 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-10-2005 11:22 AM 36Christians has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-10-2005 12:07 PM 36Christians has responded
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 301 (175461)
01-10-2005 10:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I know we have discussed this sort of thing a lot. But I think that this is an interesting situation. How about those who actually know something about the Bible pay some extra attention to this.

This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 01-10-2005 10:33 AM


PaulK
Member
Posts: 16723
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 3 of 301 (175463)
01-10-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


Well you can start by explaining how you know that John 17:17 refers to the Bible. Especially as John 17:14 implies that it refers to Jesus' own teachings.

And might I also ask when you went looking for errors in the KJV did you use the "rule" of Biblical interpreatation that states that the correct interpretation of the Bible cannot contradict itself ? If so how could you find errors ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 36Christians, posted 01-10-2005 10:23 AM 36Christians has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 301 (175465)
01-10-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


Hi,

Which King James Version are we talking about?

If it is the most recent one, then do we assume that the earlier KJV's contain errors?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 36Christians, posted 01-10-2005 10:23 AM 36Christians has responded

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 4692 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 5 of 301 (175476)
01-10-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


36 Christians

Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Ok let us open on this one

Please show chapter and verse of where Jesus ever said this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 36Christians, posted 01-10-2005 10:23 AM 36Christians has responded

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 5657 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 6 of 301 (175478)
01-10-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


If you are saying that the message of the scriptures is complete and perfect, you have my vote.
The plan of salvation is perfectly threaded throughout, and so are the examples of what not to do or risk exclusion from this plan.
But the KJV does not stand alone in providing that plan accurately. It becomes your responsibility to first of all understand this plan, and then identify and avoid places where tampering is clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 36Christians, posted 01-10-2005 10:23 AM 36Christians has not yet responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 301 (175490)
01-10-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


We are ready to receive and refute any apparent contradiction or error in the King James Bible.

What kind of animal is a bat? According to Leviticus 11:13-20, it's a bird.

Please explain what thorough study one could make of the passage in question in order to show that this is not an error; that bats are in fact birds.

quote:
11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
11:15 Every raven after his kind;
11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 36Christians, posted 01-10-2005 10:23 AM 36Christians has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by johnfolton, posted 01-11-2005 9:29 PM Dan Carroll has responded
 Message 39 by 36Christians, posted 01-12-2005 4:22 PM Dan Carroll has responded

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8955
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 301 (175517)
01-10-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
01-10-2005 10:50 AM


Some suggested Threads
These threads already cover a lot of what you are asking about:

Genesis Creation Stories: Sequence Contradictions?

could moses have written the first five books of the bible

There is no such thing as The Bible

What is to be taken literally?

Secularly Verifiable Evidence for Biblical Inerrancy

In addition it is clear from the information in the Dates and Dating thread that Genesis at least is very wrong.


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8955
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 9 of 301 (175984)
01-11-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
01-10-2005 1:26 PM


bump for 36Christians
It would be polite to offer a quick update on where you are.

Is this the first drive by posting by school bus load?? :)


This message is a reply to:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4375 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 10 of 301 (176019)
01-11-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dan Carroll
01-10-2005 12:07 PM


The bible calls all flying creatures it seems by the same hebrew word. Genesis chapter 1 confirms fowl are simply the many different creatures that fly, including the bat & the insects. The bat is being included amoung the fowl that your not to eat, don't forget that insects are not avian fowl either, and these verses are including the (insect)fowl that creepeth on all four being unclean along with the mammalian bat.

It then goes on to say you can eat the fowl (insects) that creep on all four yet that have legs above the their feet, to leap you may eat. kjv Lev 11:21.

kjv Lev 11:13 And these428 are they which ye shall have in abomination8262 among4480 the fowls;5775 they shall not3808 be eaten,398 they1992 are an abomination:8263 (853) the eagle,5404 and the ossifrage,6538 and the osprey,5822
kjv Lev 11:14 And the vulture,1676 and the kite344 after his kind;4327
kjv Lev 11:15 (853) Every3605 raven6158 after his kind;4327
Lev 11:16 And the owl,1323, 3284 and the night hawk,8464 and the cuckoo,7828 and the hawk5322 after his kind,4327
kjv Lev 11:17 And the little owl,3563 and the cormorant,7994 and the great owl,3244
kjv Lev 11:18 And the swan,8580 and the pelican,6893 and the gier-eagle,7360
kjv Lev 11:19 And the stork,2624 the heron601 after her kind,4327 and the lapwing,1744 and the bat.5847
kjv Lev 11:20 All3605 fowls5775 that creep,8318 going1980 upon5921 all four,702 shall be an abomination8263 unto you.
kjv Lev 11:21 Yet389 (853) these2088 may ye eat398 of every4480, 3605 flying5775 creeping thing8318 that goeth1980 upon5921 all four,702 which834 have legs3767 above4480, 4605 their feet,7272 to leap5425 withal2004 upon5921 the earth;776

H5775
òåó
‛o^ph
ofe
From H5774; a bird (as covered with feathers, or rather as covering with wings), often collective: - bird, that flieth, flying, fowl.

This message has been edited by Tom, 01-11-2005 21:35 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-10-2005 12:07 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 01-12-2005 9:45 AM johnfolton has responded

sld
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 301 (176027)
01-11-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


Hey 36Christians! Great to see more from good 'ole Bham on these here boards. Are you guys from Briarwood?

In any event, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by errors, but I think to call the KJV perfect is ludicrous. I'll just start with one verse from 1 John Chapter 5 verse 7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Is it your contention that this is part of the word of god? If so, can you explain why it is not in any other Bible until the latter middle ages? It is not in any of the early greek manuscripts that have survived, nor is it ever mentioned by any early Greek or Latin church writers even when they would obviously have need to use this verse to support their position on the Trinity.

This verse is now almost universally regarded as an interpolation by later "editors" of the Bible.

There are other issues, including the changed ending of Mark, additions in Acts that are not in earlier editions, and other strange differences. But that's enough for now.

Looking forward to your reply,

SLD


This message is a reply to:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4375 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 12 of 301 (176056)
01-11-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sld
01-11-2005 9:54 PM


The Waldenses with their blood preserved 1 John 5:7, and their new testament texts of the New Testament. Erasumus was chosen by God to restore these recieved texts because he was a Catholic and the Lord Jesus included his testimony the Book of Revelation,

When Erasumus restored the recieved texts, you were given the New testament without error. You can credit the Waldenses part, because of the Blood of the Waldenses given to preserve the texts without error and the Catholic Churches fear of changing any of the wording of the Book of Revelation.

The Catholic Church according to the Waldenses changed some of the wording in the Jerome bible, and thus Waldenses refusing to the death to acknowledge the pope having a right to change the wording of their bible, never accepted what they said was the Catholic tampered version of Gods Words, the Jerome latin bible.

The Catholic Church however didn't change the Wording of Book of Revelation because they feared the curse given to the changing of any of the words written in in this Book. The Waldenses said the Catholic Church tampered with other manuscripts within the New Testament. The Waldenses were purists in that they believed in preserving the Words of the original manuscripts. God Interestingly used both the Waldenses and the Catholic Church in preserving his Word, and it was a Catholic by the name of Erasumus that restored the recieved texts. Erasamus is the Catholic believer in Christ that has been said by the Catholic church the egg that hatched Luther and the reformation.

The Gutenberg press however was invented by Gutenberg to print these restored texts in German, but once Gutenberg perfected his press and actually started printing the Gutenberg bible they called his loan and confiscated his printing presses.

God then use King James to preserved his Word in the creation of the Authorized King James Bible. With the printing of the Authorized King James Version and because the Catholic church was powerless to stop the Printing of the English bible after the Spanish Armada was destroyed. God then Blessed the British Empire carrying his seed (the Word) to all the world.

The Catholic Church started printing the Douay Rhiems bible based off the Jerome latin bible in English for the Catholic Believers in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church had to come out of the closet and supply an English Douay Rheim version of the Jerome Bible or they would of started reading the Waldenses based Bible version as is expressed within the textus receptus written in English. What is interesting is that the ana-baptists included the Catholics manuscripts of the Book of the Revelations. We have the perfect inspired inerrant Words from God clothed in English within the Authorized King James Version.

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp?FROM=biblecenter

The Vaudois

Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.

A Trail of Evidence

But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse: 200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

This message has been edited by Tom, 01-11-2005 23:46 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sld, posted 01-11-2005 9:54 PM sld has not yet responded

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 301 (176115)
01-12-2005 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 36Christians
01-10-2005 10:23 AM


quote:
his is our belief because of two reasons: 1) In John 17:17 the Bible states that God’s Word is truth.

Thats totally illogical - you are using the books own claims as proof of the books claim.

By that same standar if I write a book,r egardless of tis content, and I say in it "the authors word is truth" then instantly everything I have written is transformed into absolute truth, right?

Easy enough to test. I shall write "there is no god. the authors word is truth". Now it is demonstrably clear that there is no god, by your logic.


This message is a reply to:
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RCST
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 301 (176117)
01-12-2005 5:42 AM


The bible is full of mistakes because it doesn't realy contain the word of god. But that's not the problem. The problem is that the people talk about an useless word or concept but they forget the real purpose of the bible. The real purpose in life is to love the people. It's very hard to love your enemy , only the most intelegent and courageous persons can do this like Jesus, Budda, etc.. the rest are just complaining about a stupid thing wrote like "the Earth is in the center of the sistem" wrote by an old man who didn't had the courage to love and he decided that is more important to write a book with his imagination.

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 301 (176201)
01-12-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by johnfolton
01-11-2005 9:29 PM


The bible calls all flying creatures it seems by the same hebrew word.

The Hebrew word is irrelevant. 36Christians specifically identified the King James version as being perfect all on its own. The KJV is in English.

Genesis chapter 1 confirms fowl are simply the many different creatures that fly, including the bat & the insects.

Yeah, the English language says something different.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by johnfolton, posted 01-11-2005 9:29 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
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