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Author Topic:   What is the basis for a Creationist argument against Evolution?
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 96 (78155)
01-13-2004 2:44 AM


I have a theory about the nature of Creationist arguments against Evolution, and I invite your assessment.

I see Creationist arguments solely as appeals to emotion or ignorance. The study and comprehension of Evolution, as I have discovered, is an incredibly complex and daunting task. (Talk.origins and this forum, assist significantly) I have been reading about Evolution for two years, and still remain barely a layman.

It is therefor really easy to make a caricature of it, seemingly poke holes, and generally make it seem implausible and unpalatable to those who have not committed the time to further research.

Some examples of Creationist arguments that are appeals to emotion and ignorance:

Intelligent Design:
Wow, isn't everything so amazing/complex. I can't possibly conceive how it came about, so therefore no one else can either.

What about other amazing/pretty things, like the eye, ear, ummm and the scrotum?

What about music, what about music?
What about language, what about language?
What about art, what about art?
What about, what about, what about, etc etc

Scientists don't really know something yet? Ha! Got you! God did it.

Occams Razor means God did it! That's a really simple answer (only three words long)!

All mutations are bad:
The word sounds nasty, Holywood portrays mutants as nasty, therefore all mutations must be bad.

No I'm not, you are: (childish approach to returning the accusation)
Creationism is not on the way out, Evolution is.
Evolution is a religion too.
Creationism is a science too.
We don't quote mine, you do.
It was scientists who oppressed Gallileo.
Define kinds? Um, well you define species then.

Evolution can't be observed:
If a guy in a white lab coat can't see it happening through a microscope (proper science), how could it be true? (or, my cat hasn't grown wings even though my son keeps throwing him off the roof)

Life only comes from life. Rocks don't come to life.

Statistically Evolution can't work, even though statistically I shouldn't be here.

Accidents don't build anything, only man/God does. That volcano was built by God, I tells ya.

Little changes occur (we have to admit it because we see it) but really big changes don't (luckily we will not be around long enough to see it). Anything I can't see, just can't be! Except God of course.

Were you there?

Where is a creature with half a wing? Half a flipper??

We only use 1/10, 1/3 etc of our brain...

They still haven't found the missing link. Still.

The entire fossil record consists of one tooth and paleotologists are even arguing about that.

Where are the transitional fossils, that's not many, that's not enough, still not enough, never enough, not listening, not listening, not listening...!

Piltdown was a fake, all fossils are fakes. America faked the moon landings.

I can't believe they stuck on those peppered moths! Fakes!

There are humans tracks with dinosaur tracks, there are dinosaurs still living in the Congo, the Loch Ness Monster is a dinosaur, Kent Hovind has a dinosaur in his back yard, Kent Hovind is a dinosaur.

All that debate in science is a bad thing and proves they are on shakey ground. (Our book/faith hasn't changed for 2000 years!). Evolution will go the way of Newtonian physics anyday now.

Creationism is the only alternate to Evolution (cause I haven't bothered to read about any others)

Despite the supposed dating evidence (not to mention the circular reasoning behind it) and countless numbers of scientists from many fields that prove it's validity everyday, I can counter all that with an example of why the earth is young: Insert example here (moon dust, ocean salinity, population growth, helium in atmosphere - take your pick, replace with new one when old one gets knocked down).

Things break down and decay, like my car and grandmother respectively. Therefore the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible.

The Bible falls over without a literal interpretation of Genesis. You will go to hell if you believe in evolution, so don't even listen to it. You will also go to hell if you don't attend our particular chruch. Oh, yea, and while not give me a large donation why you're at it (I need to buy some new horses). You CAN buy you way into God's favour.

Well, that was therapeutic.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Quetzal, posted 01-13-2004 8:34 AM Gilgamesh has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 01-13-2004 4:28 PM Gilgamesh has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 01-14-2004 8:19 PM Gilgamesh has not yet responded
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4186 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2 of 96 (78174)
01-13-2004 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
01-13-2004 2:44 AM


Nice rant. Fairly comprehensive coverage of the basic fundy positions (although some of the "mainstream" creationist orgs are getting a tad more sophisticated in their approach - AiG f'rinstance says most of those arguments shouldn't be used any more. Pretty sad when even AiG won't use 'em.) You did miss a couple - one of my favorites is the old "if we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?". You also neglected the whole "[insert cellular component here] is irreducibly complex, therefore God exists" line. However, that's a stylistic quibble. Hope you feel better now.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4789 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 96 (78184)
01-13-2004 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Quetzal
01-13-2004 8:34 AM


Don't forget that all evolutionists (and probably all scientists) are athiests...except for Kent Hovind since he got his degree at Patriot U

or abiogenesis and evolution are the same thing and anyone who tells you different is lying to protect the big scientific conspiracy


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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 4 of 96 (78194)
01-13-2004 10:53 AM


I think ill have to open a thread or something that an show you examples of why creationism exists and why maybe it will always exist.

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4186 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 5 of 96 (78252)
01-13-2004 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Itachi Uchiha
01-13-2004 10:53 AM


Now THAT would be interesting. What did you have in mind?

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6811
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 6 of 96 (78260)
01-13-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
01-13-2004 2:44 AM


hee hee hee
Oh, this is good! Thanks, Gilgamesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 01-13-2004 2:44 AM Gilgamesh has not yet responded

  
judge
Member (Idle past 4758 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 7 of 96 (78495)
01-14-2004 7:46 PM


The basis of special creationism is that it has been revealed to man from heaven, that man was created by God and did not descend from other life forms.
This teaching includes the notion that man was originally created neiter mortal (destined to die) nor immortal (unable to die), but with the capacity to become either.

This meaning that rather than haven arisen we have really lost our intended path, i.e we have fallen.


  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 8 of 96 (78499)
01-14-2004 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
01-13-2004 2:44 AM


Gilgamesh writes:

I see Creationist arguments solely as appeals to emotion or ignorance. The study and comprehension of Evolution, as I have discovered, is an incredibly complex and daunting task. (Talk.origins and this forum, assist significantly) I have been reading about Evolution for two years, and still remain barely a layman.

I guess this really depends on where you stand. Creationist can also see evolution as appeals to emotion and ignorance. But honestly we have to be sincere with ourselves. I have always said neither creationism or evolution can be proved 100%. Serious doubts remain on both sides and the interpretation of one law like for example the 2nd law of thermodynamics depend on where you stand.

Gilgamesh writes:

Some examples of Creationist arguments that are appeals to emotion and ignorance:Intelligent Design:All mutations are bad:

I would honestly like to read more about what evolutionist have to say about this. Can I get some links or something

Gilgamesh writes:

Where are the transitional fossils

Good question. Where are they? Can i get some links on this too


This message is a reply to:
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Macavity
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 96 (78525)
01-14-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 8:19 PM


Links and stuff
jazzlover_PR writes:

Creationist can also see evolution as appeals to emotion and ignorance.

Really? Could you please give some specific examples of evolutionary theory that qualify as an appeal to emotion or ignorance?

Here are the links you requested:

Creationist arguments: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html

Transitional fossils: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Happy reading!

--Macavity


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Taqless
Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 10 of 96 (78532)
01-14-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
01-13-2004 2:44 AM


Sweeeeeeeeet!!

This message is a reply to:
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Taqless
Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 11 of 96 (78546)
01-14-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 8:19 PM


Gilgamesh writes:
Some examples of Creationist arguments that are appeals to emotion and ignorance:Intelligent Design:All mutations are bad:

I would honestly like to read more about what evolutionist have to say about this. Can I get some links or something

1) He gave you a huge list of what he was referring to and I have to agree I've seen those comments many times.

2) If you do a search you can read the threads that pertain to Intelligent Design and see, once again, the commments in "rebuttal" from Creationists.

3) I don't know what link you want for this

:All mutations are bad:

The arguments that are put forth in this forum by individuals in the scientific community are ideas/hypotheses/etc that have been tested in a variety of ways by independent laboratories, etc. Only after rigorous testing where the results are reproducible do these "ideas" (my quotes) become accepted. The scientific community does not survive on oohs and ahhs! Well, maybe if something is really cool. If Creationists want to prove scientists wrong then why not put some of the money they collect to good use to find evidence for the claims that they say are true in the Bible?

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JonF
Member
Posts: 5532
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 12 of 96 (78622)
01-15-2004 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 8:19 PM



This message is a reply to:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 427 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 13 of 96 (78626)
01-15-2004 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
01-13-2004 9:54 AM


This from a biologist, one of the shoeshine boys of the ruling scientific elite!!


The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

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hitchy
Member (Idle past 3432 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 14 of 96 (78683)
01-15-2004 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 8:19 PM


maybe another track...
instead of looking at specific arguments for and against creation and evolution, maybe you should look into the nature of science. your comment "But honestly we have to be sincere with ourselves. I have always said neither creationism or evolution can be proved 100%. Serious doubts remain on both sides and the interpretation of one law like for example the 2nd law of thermodynamics depend on where you stand." leaves me thinking that you are not exactly sure what science actually is. what do you know about the nature of science? what do you know about creationism and ID? read the final chapters in some of those creationist diatribes to find the real reasons behind their search for truth.

to gilgamesh i give much thanks...

[This message has been edited by hitchy, 01-15-2004]


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nator
Member (Idle past 484 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 96 (78684)
01-15-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Itachi Uchiha
01-14-2004 8:19 PM


quote:
I have always said neither creationism or evolution can be proved 100%.

Nothing in science is ever proven 100%.

We can never know everything there is to know, for various reasons, so in science we must always leave open the ability to incorporate new information, findings, and insights into current paradigms.

On the other hand, Creation science often claims to have absolute "truth" or absolute proof. Rarely are their claims about God or the Bible tentative, nor are they ever going to allow any information, findings, or insights to contradict what they have already decided must be true (from the Bible, for example)

quote:
Serious doubts remain on both sides

I think you will find that Creationists doubt themselves very little, and scientists doubt themselves all the time.

However, even though scientists are, by profession, great doubters, there is very little at this point to doubt in the idea that allele frequencies change in populations over time.

Similarly, there is little to doubt in the idea that the sun is the center of our solar system, that germs cause disease, and that matter is made up of atoms.


"Evolution is a 'theory', just like gravity. If you don't like it, go jump off a bridge."

This message is a reply to:
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