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Author Topic:   Adaptive mutations: Evidence of an ID mechanism?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 10 (265490)
12-04-2005 3:22 PM


Adaptive mutations are non-random mutations that occur in response to the environment. They are thus directed mutations, but in a general sense.
Are they real, and if so, evidence for an ID mechanism?
Some links for reference.
Adaptive mutations are mutations that occur in nondividing or slowly dividing cells during prolonged nonlethal selection, and that appear to be specific to the challenge of the selection in the sense that the only mutations that arise are those that provide a growth advantage to the cell. The issue of the specificity has been controversial because it violates our most basic assumptions about the randomness of mutations with respect to their effect on the cell. Although a variety of experiments in several systems in both bacteria and yeast have claimed to demonstrate that specificity, those experiments have been subjected to a variety of technical criticisms suggesting that the specificity may not be real. Here I use the ebg system to provide evidence that when selection is applied to one specific nucleotide site within a gene, mutation occurs at that site but not at an alternative and equally mutable site within the same gene.
On the Specificity of Adaptive Mutations | Genetics | Oxford Academic
Recent experiments by Galitski et al. [26] and Radicella et al. [27] began to confirm Ben-Jacob et al. [21] hypothesis, that in order to perform adaptive mutations (and other non-random mutations) the bacteria employ cybernetics elements (plasmids, in the case of Galitski et al. [26]), that transfer those mutations from cell to cell [27]. Thus those mutations can be "synchronized, autocatalytic and cooperative genetic variations" [21]. Although far from being generally accepted, a picture of problem-solving bacteria capable of adapting their genome to problems posed by the environment is emerging. This is a picture radically different from the contemporary picture of lifeless, passive DNA used as a memory storage for protein production.
http://star.tau.ac.il/~inon/wisdom1/node4.html
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/TMONTM.php
http://www.actabp.pl/pdf/2_2000/451-457s.pdf

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminWounded, posted 12-04-2005 5:37 PM randman has replied

AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 10 (265511)
12-04-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
12-04-2005 3:22 PM


At the moment this is little better than a series of bare links.
Could you perhaps expand on what the specific papers show, ideally in your own words.
As it stands this seems to rely on others to develop a discussion based on the scantiest of material.
TTFN,
AW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 3:22 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 10:35 PM AdminWounded has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 3 of 10 (265578)
12-04-2005 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminWounded
12-04-2005 5:37 PM


I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
My point on the thread is to ask if adaptive mutations are real, and how that affects evolutionary theory or Intelligent Design. I can't put forth a definite position on the matter because I don't know enough about it yet.
Is it wrong to start a thread on a subject one is undecided on?
I don't think it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminWounded, posted 12-04-2005 5:37 PM AdminWounded has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminWounded, posted 12-05-2005 2:24 AM randman has replied

AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 10 (265648)
12-05-2005 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
12-04-2005 10:35 PM


Re: I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
Not neccessarily, but there isn't really anything substantial or focussed here to discuss. It is little better developed than saying 'Adaptive mutations! Whats that all about then?'
The quality of your references is also highly variable. There is more than enough primary literature available through open access portals such as Pubmed Central that there is no need to use such loose sources as the ISIS web page or the very brief treatment from Tel Aviv. Reading primary sources is also a much better way of improving your understanding of the topic and the fundamaental mechanisms involved, and having to interpret what you have learnt from your reading for others is a good way of testing how well you have understood it.
TTFN,
AW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 10:35 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:52 AM AdminWounded has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 10 (265715)
12-05-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminWounded
12-05-2005 2:24 AM


Re: I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
'Adaptive mutations! Whats that all about then?'
What's wrong with that as a topic? In fact, someone claimed adaptive mutations were not real on another thread. There are obviously plenty of others that say it is real.
What's wrong with a thread topic to discuss the idea?
I really don't see what your beef is. Does something have to be stated in an adversarial manner to qualify? I don't think it does.
Certainly, the subject of adaptive mutations related to Biological Evolution, right? Wonder what the rules are for promoting your own topic, btw.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminWounded, posted 12-05-2005 2:24 AM AdminWounded has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AdminWounded, posted 12-05-2005 10:28 AM randman has not replied
 Message 7 by AdminPhat, posted 12-06-2005 7:20 PM randman has not replied
 Message 8 by AdminNWR, posted 12-06-2005 7:54 PM randman has not replied

AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 10 (265720)
12-05-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
12-05-2005 9:52 AM


Re: I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
What's wrong with that as a topic? In fact, someone claimed adaptive mutations were not real on another thread. There are obviously plenty of others that say it is real.
Then why not bring that in and contextualise what you are saying.
I really don't see what your beef is. Does something have to be stated in an adversarial manner to qualify? I don't think it does.
I've never suggested that an adversarial manner was neccessary. All I am suggesting is that as it stands your OP doesn't merit its own thread. If all you want is for someone to explain adaptive mutations to you why not post to one of the already extant threads on the topic such as the Disabling Bacterial Resistance thread.
An adversarial manner is not what I am asking for, what I am asking for is a substantive OP as a springboard for further discussion. At the moment this OP has very little material for discussion.
Don't you think that just reading and understanding a couple of papers, even just the first Hall paper you reference, and giving a brief summary and your interpretation would be less effort than trying to subvert the PNT promotions process?
Certainly, the subject of adaptive mutations related to Biological Evolution, right?
Merely fitting into the category does not mean it must be promoted to the forum.
TTFN,
AW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:52 AM randman has not replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 10 (266185)
12-06-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
12-05-2005 9:52 AM


Re: I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
randman writes:
Wonder what the rules are for promoting your own topic, btw.
Alas...we cannot promote our own topics! If only...
randman writes:
I really don't see what your beef is. Does something have to be stated in an adversarial manner to qualify? I don't think it does.
No. Why would we all be adversarial anyway?
My advice is to finish the threads that you are currently in, and we will put this one on hold for about ten days. Try and edit it if you choose to clarify it, and I will promote it after December 14th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:52 AM randman has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 10 (266196)
12-06-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
12-05-2005 9:52 AM


Re: I can't explain adaptive mutations yet.
Wonder what the rules are for promoting your own topic, btw.
In my opinion, that would be a serious abuse of authority.
In this case, AdminWounded has given you some useful advice on how to proceed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:52 AM randman has not replied

AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 10 (267191)
12-09-2005 12:35 PM


Bump for Randman
Do you plan to revise this at all or are you just waiting for Coondawg to promote it on the 14th?
TTFN,
AW

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3976
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 10 of 10 (270099)
12-16-2005 3:52 PM


For the record - Message 1 promoted as new topic on 12/16/05
Just completing the record about this PNT. The message 1 had been promoted as the new topic, and no record of the promotion was done in this topic.
Adminnemooseus
Added by edit - New topic location is http://EvC Forum: Adaptive mutations: Evidence of an ID mechanism? -->EvC Forum: Adaptive mutations: Evidence of an ID mechanism?
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-16-2005 03:54 PM

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