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Author
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Topic: why convince people you're right?
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 16 of 33 (307921)
04-30-2006 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by CK
04-30-2006 1:04 PM
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Steakin a claim
CK writes: "No politicians, no salesmen, no religious people, this means YOU". That generally keeps most of them away. The rest I set the dogs on. Remind me to bring a steak forRover next time I come to visit! 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 1:04 PM | | CK has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 17 of 33 (307925)
04-30-2006 1:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by jar
04-30-2006 12:14 PM
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He, She, or It
Jar writes: If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence It does not exist. As a Christian, why do you always use the gender "she" for God? The only time that God ever showed gender was in the incarnation of Jesus Christ---who is not a she. (not so in other religions, I know!)
Jar writes: Our universe exists within GOD, IMHO. How do you differentiate this from pantheistic concepts? I realize that these are your opinions, and so I am not seeking argument so much as further clarification. This message has been edited by Phat, 04-30-2006 11:45 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by jar, posted 04-30-2006 12:14 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by jar, posted 04-30-2006 2:13 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 18 of 33 (307945)
04-30-2006 2:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-30-2006 1:44 PM
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Re: He, She, or It
Off topic here but I'm happy to discuss it with you in another thread. However your assertion that
Phat writes: As a Christian, why do you always use the gender "she" for God? is false based on the very line you quoted from me.
jar writes: If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence It does not exist. There are two Pronouns in that sentence that refer to GOD. What are they?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-30-2006 1:44 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 19 of 33 (307946)
04-30-2006 2:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by CK
04-30-2006 6:15 AM
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charles knight writes: This is a pretty dodgy and loaded statement that needs further qualification. What happens if a believer thinks that their god(s) gives them the right to beat their child on a regular basis. You stop questioning because it's their right to believe what they want?
wasn't meant to be... obviously if a persons beliefs include torturing or hurting other i would take a different view.. iwas talking about this one instance as it occured yesterday evening.
charles knight writes: Do you actually mean that it's their right to believe as long as that belief does not harm others?
yes, i would agree.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 6:15 AM | | CK has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 20 of 33 (307949)
04-30-2006 2:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
04-30-2006 10:38 AM
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Re: Speaking as an atheist.
chiroptera writes: You seem to be implying that believe in a loving god and an afterlife is the only source of comfort for those who are bereaved or are experiencing other difficulties not necessarily, i was talking about this one conversation I Had last night with a guy I know. This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-30-2006 02:17 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 04-30-2006 10:38 AM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 21 of 33 (307952)
04-30-2006 2:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
04-30-2006 10:49 AM
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crashfrog writes: What makes you think we'd be taking it away?
Simply from my own experience, that I found myself talking with this guy, questioning his beliefs, and in doing so found my self pehaps causing him to question the validity of his own beliefs.
crashfrog writes: Don't you know how empowering it is to realize that there's no such thing as fate or destiny or "God's plan for your life", and all your choices are in your own hands? That you have total freedom to choose your own path?Don't you know how comforting it can be to realize that, just because your friend or your family member died in the arms of a different faith than you, they're not consigned to a burning hell of torment? The idea that atheism doesn't bring its own comforts is simply false.
I do.. yes.. but it was obvious to me that this empowerment was not what my friend would want, I really got the feeling he relied on his faith an awful lot. I basically ended up stopping mid sentance, and chaging the subject because ic ould see i was posing questions he'd never asked himself.
crashfrog writes: Why wouldn't atheists have the right to counter-prosletize?
have the right, yes of course. but perhaps also have the compassion to allow people to have their myth of it makes them happy. the old santa analogy comes up here... it would be pretty nasty to come up to a kid and explain why his belief in santa is wrong
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2006 10:49 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5062 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: 12-20-2001
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Message 22 of 33 (307958)
04-30-2006 2:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Heathen
04-30-2006 2:23 PM
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taken away or being taken away
It is not the same thing to take off and to take it off, at least this is what I heard people saying in public yesterday. TheFrog wondered why it was that someone might think that evos "take" something away or will to take it away (simple idea of removing prayer or Bibles from public schools etc as historically happened etc). Well, as Stove said, and do not find this untrue, quote:
With these two wholesome recollections present to our minds, let us no return to Darwinism, and demand to know what the hell is going on, with this business of calling certain things "biological errors", "errors of heredity,", and the like? The answer is simplicity itself: what is going on is just this. Whenever Darwinism is in error, Darwinians simply call the organisms in question or their characteristics, an error! Whenever there is manifestly something wrong with their theory, tey say that there is something wrong with the organisms
quote:
Darwinian Fairytales Selfish Genes, Errors of Heredity and other Fables of Evolution
and since I personally found that evos found something wrong with me (my mind) because there was EITHER something wrong with their theory or the particular organisms I represented to them (herps), it becomes obvious to me that Darwinians might be taking things away from students of the phenomenon if the organisms are not wrong but the theory is and rather than admit this the evo subjectively thinks it is neither the organism nor the theory but the APPEARENCE only. From this step becuase they fail to believe in things in themselves two levels of nothing produce a feeling being guilty of taking away something that even if it was not there, there is no known material reason to take it away, assuming by theory that it must be material.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Heathen, posted 04-30-2006 2:23 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 23 of 33 (307960)
04-30-2006 3:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Heathen
04-30-2006 2:23 PM
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Simply from my own experience, that I found myself talking with this guy, questioning his beliefs, and in doing so found my self pehaps causing him to question the validity of his own beliefs. Maybe you didn't understand the question. What makes you think that you would be taking away his comfort if you were to sway him to atheism?
I do.. yes.. but it was obvious to me that this empowerment was not what my friend would want, I really got the feeling he relied on his faith an awful lot. Sure, but is that the choice, here? Faith or hopelessness? What leads you to believe that to be the case, as you seem to imply in your OP?
have the right, yes of course. but perhaps also have the compassion to allow people to have their myth of it makes them happy. What makes you think atheists can't be happy? You know, it's not like things are inherently better for atheists; our loved ones still die and disappoint us, just like anybody else. Don't you think we have our own ways to deal with that?
the old santa analogy comes up here... it would be pretty nasty to come up to a kid and explain why his belief in santa is wrong Unless it caused him to realize how much his parents loved him, that they would not only take the time to shop for the presents that he wanted, but actually invent a falsehood about where the presents come from so as to avoid taking any credit for any of it. It's all in how you look at it. Ignorance can be bliss, but so can understanding.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Heathen, posted 04-30-2006 2:23 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Heathen, posted 04-30-2006 9:22 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 24 of 33 (308090)
04-30-2006 9:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
04-30-2006 3:02 PM
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crashfrog writes: Maybe you didn't understand the question. What makes you think that you would be taking away his comfort if you were to sway him to atheism?
ahh.. i did misunderstand.. I guess, the way he described the comfort he got from believing, I got the impression that he saw no other way of dealing with it.
crashfrog writes: Sure, but is that the choice, here? Faith or hopelessness?
I got the feeling that for him it may have been. I wasn't willing to push the issue.
crashfrog writes: What makes you think atheists can't be happy?
I don't think that. but i think that if someone who relies ontheir faith has that faith taken away from them, it could possibly do a lot of harm.
crashfrog writes: It's all in how you look at it. Ignorance can be bliss, but so can understanding.
agreed... but I guess I think it's not my place to make that choice for anyone.. This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-30-2006 09:27 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2006 3:02 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2006 10:23 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 25 of 33 (308101)
04-30-2006 10:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Heathen
04-30-2006 9:22 PM
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agreed... but I guess I think it's not my place to make that choice for anyone.. How could you make that choice for anyone but yourself? The best, or worst, you can do is present the arguments as you understand them, and ask the questions you feel should be asked. If that's enough to sway someone, well, what comfort could they have truly had?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Heathen, posted 04-30-2006 9:22 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by Heathen, posted 05-01-2006 10:08 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 26 of 33 (308195)
05-01-2006 10:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
04-30-2006 10:23 PM
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crashfrog writes: How could you make that choice for anyone but yourself?
by planting doubt where maybe there was none before..
crashfrog writes: and ask the questions you feel should be asked.
but, should they really be asked in this context? Someone who gets a lot of comfort from their faith, should be left to enjoy that comfort. what's to be gained by stomping in and destroying their safe 'happy ever after' little universe?
crashfrog writes: If that's enough to sway someone, well, what comfort could they have truly had?
ignorance really can be bliss...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2006 10:23 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 27 of 33 (308197)
05-01-2006 10:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Heathen
05-01-2006 10:08 AM
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Must be a pretty weak faith if a quick discussion in the pub destroys it - such a faith is going to be blown away in the wind in any real crisis, so I'm not sure what "use" it is to start with.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Heathen, posted 05-01-2006 10:08 AM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Heathen, posted 05-01-2006 12:10 PM | | CK has not replied | | | Message 29 by BMG, posted 05-01-2006 12:14 PM | | CK has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 28 of 33 (308215)
05-01-2006 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by CK
05-01-2006 10:17 AM
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charles knight writes:
Must be a pretty weak faith if a quick discussion in the pub destroys it
I wouldn't say I destroyed it, But I certainly posed questions which I don't think he had ever been faced with. Either way... I just felt It would have been wrong to pursue the discussion and possibly take from him something which he obviously found great solace in.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by CK, posted 05-01-2006 10:17 AM | | CK has not replied |
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BMG
Member (Idle past 238 days) Posts: 357 From: Southwestern U.S. Joined: 03-16-2006
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Message 29 of 33 (308218)
05-01-2006 12:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by CK
05-01-2006 10:17 AM
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I think?
Hello.
CK writes: Must be a pretty weak faith if a quick discussion in the pub destroys it- such a faith is going to be blown away in the wind in any real crisis, so I'm not sure what "use" it is to start with I think Creavolution agress with both you and Crash. But he may be hesitant to be the stimulus that drives his friend from the comfort of his religion. AbE: whoops. You posted as I was typing. My bad.  This message has been edited by Infixion, 05-01-2006 12:15 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by CK, posted 05-01-2006 10:17 AM | | CK has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by Heathen, posted 05-01-2006 12:16 PM | | BMG has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 30 of 33 (308219)
05-01-2006 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by BMG
05-01-2006 12:14 PM
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Re: I think?
infixion writes: But he may be hesitant to be the stimulus that drives his friend from the comfort of his religion. precisely..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by BMG, posted 05-01-2006 12:14 PM | | BMG has not replied |
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