God and Mathematics

As a Christian, I take the fairly non-controversial view that God created the Universe and its physical laws. As time is also just part of the Universe, I believe that God is also outside time: He does not know the future... He just sees it, along with the past and the now.As a mathematician, I struggle with the idea that God created mathematics :-) As I burn at the stake, I postulate that mathematics transcends both the physical and the spiritual... perhaps God and mathematics are one?Anyone want to discuss, or should I just burn?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

What do you mean by creating mathematics ?Are you assuming Platonism ? Or do you mean the mathematical aspects of the universe, rather than mathematics as a formal system ?

With my mathematical physicist hat on I find it very hard not to be a Platonist, sometimes even forgetting that there is any other option :-)

Would it do any good to post mathematical statistics from the bible or nature?

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I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrongDo you know what your DNC stands for?

My mathematical studies were more in the pure maths area. I find it hard to believe in Platonism. I see mathematics as a form of language and to say that every theorem has an independant existence seems to me like stating that every grammatical sentence has an independant existence

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and EvilIn this exercise with arithmetic I suggest the ‘Garden of Eden’ is in the forest of Shakespear’s play ‘A Midsummer Nights Dream’ where Nick Bottom has the head of an ass. Now the part of the story that many know, is that of the ‘Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil’ and it was Adam and Eve who were told could eat of all the fruit of the trees in the Garden except one. But the Serpent, that is Satan, was a persuasive advocate.For me I use the reference 410 for Good, that is the Elohim of elohims (LORD of Lords) at 323 and + King of kings at 87 is 410.And Evil fpr me is that of Darkness at 1770 (which is Gravity at 177,000 mps) the Black Trinity of the Three Deceiving Frogs which come out of the mouth of the Biblical Dragon at 322 + the Beast at 933 and + the False Prophet 515 is 1770.And as the masks of the Ancient Egyptian gods usually gave each god a particular reference number, so the head of the ass gave Nick Bottom the number 365, for the ass has 365 days gestation period, compared to the human’s 273 days.So we now have Nick Bottom with the head of an ass walking into the secret garden within the forest, a garden that is patterned on the Garden of Eden.Thus the ‘Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil’ reveals that Good, the Lord God is 410 x 3 and that of Evil, who is Satan at 1770 x 3 and x Satan who comes as an ‘Angel of Light’ at 186,282.4655 miles per second in a vacuum (299,792.568kms) x 3 it is the reference number of the ass at 3.650000e+12. Imagine that, ‘Good x Evil x Light’ is the Ass at 365.So a bit of science and some numerology reveals knowledge of a kind some don't like.Mmm...PS
Now if the 95% of Light speed was gravity speedThe opportunity to do this arose in September 2002, when Jupiter passed in front of a quasar that emits bright radio waves. Fomalont and Kopeikin combined observations from a series of radio telescopes across the Earth to measure the apparent change in the quasar's position as the gravitational field of Jupiter bent the passing radio waves. From that they worked out that gravity does move at the same speed as light. Their actual figure was 0.95 times light speed, but with a large error margin of plus or minus 0.25But experts say the indirect evidence that gravity propagates at the speed of light was already overwhelming. "It would be revolutionary if gravity were measured not to propagate at the speed of light - we were virtually certain that it must," says Lawrence Krauss of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. New Scientist
Anyway, light speed in a vacuum is some 186,282.4675 miles per second, and so about 95% is 177,000 miles per second.

The Middle East War BoxSome arithmetic...The Battle of Armageddon is to be fought at and over Jerusalem, although Megiddo, or Armageddon, will be the military staging area for the world’s most advanced and destructive weapons.I now use accurate map coordinates to show the War Box of Death.My thoughts on the positioning of the Great Pyramid, the Altar of God, the First Wonder of the World, that stands squarely north, south, east and west. (Please note Isaiah 19:19).Using the longitude, the measurement was contrived late in the 19th century at a conference in the USA where Greenwich, London, was selected as the start of the longitude circumference and Paris rejected.The Egyptian Government Survey of 1925, made an error in their geographical location for the Pyramid and so the true position of the Great Pyramid was published in 1932 which gives the longitude at 31 degrees 9’ 0 east of Greenwich, and its latitude 29 degrees 58’ 51’ north and very close to the thirtieth parallel.Now imagine a rectangle, that is where the bottom left hand corner is the ‘cross-hairs’ of the Great Pyramid’s location coordination of longitude of 31 degrees 09 minutes 00 seconds east and a latitude of 29 degrees 58 minutes 51 seconds north.And the top right hand corner of the War Box is the holy city of Jerusalem at a longitude of 35 degrees 10 minutes east and a latitude of 31 degrees 47 minutes north (Philips’ New World Atlas).So the War Box has two vertical sides of 108.15 minutes and two horizontal sides of 241 minutes, and so a War Box with an area of 26,064.15 square minutes And 26,064.2 (a touch more than 26,064.15) and /2 is 13,032.1 and x 10 is 361 x 361 or Death at 19 x 19 x 19 x 19 (the goat Shepherd's Monument).So the War Box, ‘controlled’ by the Great Pyramid and Jerusalem, is the 'War Box of Death' thanks to the precise map coordinates, thanks to the American longitude conference in the late 19th century.JohnDMPSI continue to be intrigued by the challenge thrown down to all by war time code breaker Mr Oliver Lawn for someone to solve the mystery of the lettering ‘D. M. - O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.’ carved on the goat Shepherd’s Monument in the gardens of Shugborough House, Staffordshire, England So by using the standard numerical code for letters in Greek. The lettering ‘O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V. has the value 1721 and 'D.M.' the number 44. And ‘O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V x ‘O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V. x ‘D.M.’ or 1721 x 1721 x 44 is equivalent Death's reference 190 x 190 x 190 x 19. And the goat is Death at 152 (19 x 8) days gestation. And the diameter of Mars at 4,219.0303 miles x Pi twice and cubed is equivalent to 20 x 1,900,000 x 1,900,000 that is Death.

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"Number Form Follows
Measurement Function"

Almighty God measured himself...----------------------------------------------------------------------------Dr. Mansour Hassab-Elnaby, Professor of Physics, Women's College, Ain Shams University, Heliopolis, Asma Fahmy Str., Cairo, Egypt wrote:Lunar Orbital Motion described in Quran: Fourteen centuries ago, the QURAN(5), i.e. .the Holy Book of Islamic Religion, was directed from GOD to all humanity through Prophet Mohammad, who lived in the Arabian Peninsula.The ARAB people use the lunar system in their calculation of time. The Quran addressed them in the only language they could understand without upsetting their habits. GOD (in Arabic ALLAH: the ONE and Only GOD, the CREATOR) says in the Quran:"GOD is the ONE who made the sun a shining glory and the moon a light and for her ordained mansions, so that you might know the number of years and the reckoning" (10:5)The lunar year is twelve months, the month is defined recently as the time of one revolution of the moon in its orbit around the earth. God hints at such orbit in the Quran:"GOD is the ONE who created the night, the day, the sun, and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (21:33).Here an essential scientific fact is clearly stated, namely, the existence of the earth's, sun'so and moon's orbits; besides, a reference is made to the travelling of these celestial bodies in space with their own motion! A new concept had therefore been established in the Quran, hundreds of years before it was discovered by modern science--------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK, now how God has written himself into his own creation and especially that of the Earth, his own ‘Jewel in his Crown’.The Solar System, is moving around the Milky Way Galaxy at 447,500 miles per hour (720,000kmh).The Earth is moving around the Sun at some 66,626.4665 miles per hour (107,200kmh).The Queen’s Chamber, the Chamber of the Elohim, in the Great Pyramid, (I say it is the ‘Altar of God’ the Book of Isaiah 19:19-20) has a volume of 4,990 cubic feet (using wall height). And the Earth’s equatorial circumference is some 24,900.10 miles and the Queen’s Chamber, the Chamber of the Elohim, at 4990 x 4990 and /1,000 is 24,900.1 and so related to the equatorial circumferencxe of the Earth.The Sun’s equatorial diameter is 865,000 miles and multiplied by the speed of Sun in our galaxy at 447,500 miles per hour x 40 lots is equivalent to Earth’s orbit at 66,626.4665 miles per hour x the Earth’s circumference at 24,900.10 miles is Christ’s reference at 9333. Thus Sun x Sun’s speed x 40 is equivalent to Earth x Earth’s speed x Christ at 9333. The reference number for Christ at 9333 is made up of the Son of God at 153 x 61 the helm of war.The Hypotenuse of ChristThe hypotenuse of a right triangle is the triangle's longest side, i.e., the side opposite the right angle.The base length of a right triangle at 447,500 miles, the speed of the Sun per hour and the height of the right angle at the speed of the Earth at about 66,628.411 miles per hour gives a hypotenuse length of this triangle at 452,432.9732 miles per hour.Now Christ’s reference number at 9,333,000,000 x 8 lots and /9 lots and square root and halved and x Pi is a hypotenuse length of 452,432.9732 miles per hour.Thus Christ is found in the simple geometry of a triangle thanks to the speed of the Sun around the galaxy and the speed of the Earth around the Sun.Clever is God who made his ‘Jewel in his Crown’.JohnDMPS
So the average of the Earth moving around the Sun at some 66,626.4665 miles per hour and the Earth at about 66,628.411 miles per hour is some 66,627.5 miles per hour.The Solar System's speed and the Moon's areaAnd 447,500 miles per hour x 480,000,000 lots is 2,148000e+14 and square root once is 14,656,056.77 square miles the area of the Moon (using the equatorial diameter).

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"Number Form Follows
Measurement Function"

Mathmatics is a purely human construct. A logical tool used to organize data to allow us to better manipulate/understand the universe. It is a form of formalized logic and therefore a function of the brain.Think of it like a programing language. In the end, it all boils down to Ones and Zeroes. A vast switchboard of on off switches, the programing language you used was a formalized, managable, system that you used to organize those ones and zeroes.Math/logic are the same sorts of things, but applied to neurons and synapses. Thar ya go...And thus god vanishes in a puff of logic

have you ever read "contact" by carl sagan? the book, not the movie. it differs in a very important way:when ellie (and the others) talk to the aliens, they mention that they didn't make the transit system, they just found it. it was made by some other groups, architects of universe apparently, who also designed it's physical laws.and mathematical laws. the, uh, ending has some proof of this which is rather interesting (although mathematically unsound i'm sure).anyways, i spent most of my childhood in a mathematics department; my father is a somewhat prominent graph theorist. mathematicians tend not to take that sort of flight of fancy very seriously at all. my father panned "pi" for instance. however, they do say something kind of interesting along this topic line:"mathematics is the only true religion." apparently because it's the only system of faith that recognizes that it's just a system of faith, built on very fundamental (and unprovable) axioms. if one of these axioms were to be overturned, it would take a good chunk of theoretical mathematics with it.

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אָרַח

My Platonism comes from two related areas:The first is Wigner's "Unreasonable effectiveness" discussion. The point being that mathematics is far too rooted in the laws of reality to be just a convenient way of looking at things.The second is a development of this: our modern theories, GR, particle physics and QM/QFT, are not only founded in mathematics but are essentially mathematics. They do not require the physical world to exist (certainly the deterministic element of QM). The mathematics is not a convenient way of describing what is going on... it seems to be the mathematics itself that is "going on".We predict in these theories, not based on physical intuition, but purely on where the mathematics leads us. It is no longer a tool... it is our guide.The frame-dragging we've just measured via that satellite is not a physical prediction. It drops out of the mathematics of GR... and lo-and-behold there it is! We don't "model" frame-dragging with mathematics; there is no need. The mathematics tells us what to look for and we go and find it. This is very different to pre-20th century physics...

that was a good book.

numerology ≠ mathematics.

No, I haven't read Contact, to my shame... Sagan was a childhood hero. Our first video recorder was bought becasue I refused point blank to go to bed when Cosmos was first being shown (at some stupidly late time). Actually, my first major research project was into Misner and Thorne's wormholes, which they discovered in answer to Sagan asking them how he could achieve a realistic "hyperspace" for Contact... don't get me started on my hatred for the depiction of wormholes in popular sf :-)You're right, pure mathematicians don't particularly like thinking along these lines... but they are a very dull bunch :-) DPMMS was never the place to be, where as us in DAMTP did nothing other than sit around, drink coffee and discuss such ideas!Don't forget that we do spend a good deal of time "otherthrowing" our axioms. That is the whole point of Topos theory. Strip out an axiom... excluded middle being an obvious one... and see what we have. This is back to the various "formal systems" of mathematics as mentioned by PaulK.