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Author
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Topic: American Imperialism
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 16 of 45 (315009)
05-24-2006 8:45 PM
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actually, it would probably be better if we just went out and declared that :yes, we are imperialistic. Yes, we do fight wars to achieve our own ends and to increase our power. Then the world wouldn't have to get sick and tired of our moralism charade in diplomacy, expecially since not one nation trusts our "altruism" in diplomacy--they don't find it stable enough to ground relations on. Or at least during the treaty-making process. Again, my source is Kissinger.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: 12-27-2005
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Message 17 of 45 (315010)
05-24-2006 8:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by kuresu
05-24-2006 8:45 PM
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great point
actually, it would probably be better if we just went out and declared that :yes, we are imperialistic. Yes, we do fight wars to achieve our own ends and to increase our power. Then the world wouldn't have to get sick and tired of our moralism charade in diplomacy, expecially since not one nation trusts our "altruism" in diplomacy--they don't find it stable enough to ground relations on. Or at least during the treaty-making process. Again, my source is Kissinger. Awesome post kuresu.... and while any well educated America know this is the obvious truth, you have to remember that the average American citizen wouldn't like hearing this and likes to maintain their ignorant fantasy view of our country. (why do you think problems never get solved here  )
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 8:45 PM | | kuresu has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 18 of 45 (315011)
05-24-2006 8:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by kuresu
05-24-2006 8:45 PM
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The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
It is much more economical to simply dominate and control the resources of a nation instead of occupying it. If you can control the local government, overthrow any locally created governments that are not directly under your control, it is far less expensive. The last major Imperial acquistion the US made was Hawaii. The US though has been active in creating new nations when it was in the US interest, deposing elected governments, toppling regimes, applying economic embargoes and structuring nations to promote US commercial interests.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 8:45 PM | | kuresu has replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 19 of 45 (315012)
05-24-2006 9:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by jar
05-24-2006 8:57 PM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
aye, and how that's not imperialism escpapes me. Did we get Hawaii as territory before or after the Span-Am war? I want to say it was before that war, which means the Philipinnes were our last major territorial gain, which we gave up. Hawaii was the last state, if that's what you mean.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by jar, posted 05-24-2006 8:57 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by jar, posted 05-24-2006 9:07 PM | | kuresu has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 20 of 45 (315016)
05-24-2006 9:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by kuresu
05-24-2006 9:02 PM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
We held on to Hawaii for economic and strategic reasons. We let go of the Philipinnes for the same reasons.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 9:02 PM | | kuresu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 9:15 PM | | jar has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 21 of 45 (315018)
05-24-2006 9:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by kuresu
05-24-2006 8:01 PM
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Re: "American Imperialism" is Marxist propaganda
You mean the US couldn't have wiped out Russia in the two years it took Russia to develop an atomic bomb. How many Hiroshimas would it have taken the Russian to prevent a Nagasakl?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 8:01 PM | | kuresu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 9:22 PM | | iano has not replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 22 of 45 (315019)
05-24-2006 9:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by jar
05-24-2006 9:07 PM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
yes and no, for the philipinnes. We were going to give them their independence prior to WWII, but then Japan came onto the scene, and it became strategically important to hold onto it.
All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by jar, posted 05-24-2006 9:07 PM | | jar has not replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 23 of 45 (315020)
05-24-2006 9:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by iano
05-24-2006 9:11 PM
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Re: "American Imperialism" is Marxist propaganda
yes. You do have an idea of how large that country is, right? Never mind the huge army it had/has? Besides, why would we want to take over Russia? Can you imagine trying to govern that country, right next to the chinese? They have difficutly. In fact, Tsar Alexander (or whichever one it was that sold us Alaska) wanted to sell us a huge chunk of Siberia. We declined, and for good reason.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by iano, posted 05-24-2006 9:11 PM | | iano has not replied |
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 24 of 45 (315021)
05-24-2006 9:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
05-24-2006 7:26 PM
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Re: "American Imperialism" is Marxist propaganda
just because our empire stopped growing at half of this continent does not make it less of an empire. we murdered thousands of people in the ruthless expansion of our borders. not to mention our economic empire which easily controls half of the world.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Faith, posted 05-24-2006 7:26 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: 03-18-2006
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Message 25 of 45 (315037)
05-24-2006 11:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by kuresu
05-24-2006 8:01 PM
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Re: "American Imperialism" is Marxist propaganda
quote:
And we dropped all we had on Japan.
Slight correction. The US had at least 6 atomic bombs at the time of Nagasaki, some were in route. Kyoto, the orginal target of the Nagasaki bomb was next on the list. Not sure where this misconception comes from, as I used to believe it myself.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by kuresu, posted 05-24-2006 8:01 PM | | kuresu has replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 26 of 45 (315039)
05-24-2006 11:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by anglagard
05-24-2006 11:46 PM
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Re: "American Imperialism" is Marxist propaganda
thanks for the correction. I think I got that misconception from that fact that we made a gamble with the bomb, knowing how tought it is to make the Japanese surrender--that whole honor thing. I remember learning that had they not surrendered after the bombs, we would have had to invade the island. And that we had very few bombs at that time. Fortunately (for us and perhaps them, if you consider loss of life estimates), they did surrender after just a couple of bombs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by anglagard, posted 05-24-2006 11:46 PM | | anglagard has not replied |
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: 03-18-2006
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Message 27 of 45 (315047)
05-25-2006 12:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by jar
05-24-2006 8:57 PM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
quote:
The US though has been active in creating new nations when it was in the US interest, deposing elected governments, toppling regimes, applying economic embargoes and structuring nations to promote US commercial interests.
Here is the scorecard for the last 50 years via misinformation.net (for the uninitated, the term misinformation means official misinformation, not that the data is misinformation. This data may be independently confirmed from several outside sources.)
In the last 50 years, the United States Government, through the military, has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing at least 8,000,000 people. 1952 to 1979 - 70,000 Iranians killed. (Ayatollah Khomeini, United States public enemy for the 1980s, was on the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) payroll while in exile in Paris in the 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden at different times.) 1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed 1954 to 1975 - 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed. 1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed 1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed 1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed 1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed 1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed 1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed 1980s - 80,000 El Salvadorans killed 1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega. 1980s - over 700,000 From Libyan, Grenada, Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Nicaragua, Brazilian, Argentinean and Yugoslavian killed. 1990s - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright (then, Secretary of State) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While the US could excuse some of the above deaths as part of the global fight against communism, in several cases, particularly Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, and Chile 1973, elected governments were overthrown and dictatorships installed in their place. Hardly a way to export American ideals of freedom and democracy. The idea that a given nation is automatically right or moral just because one was born and raised there is an example of extreme nationalism, and usually indicates an overwhelming respect for authoritarianism. In my study of history, I have discovered there is no ideology, nation, religion, race, identifiable group, indeed even tribe, that has clean hands if one goes back far enough and looks deeply enough.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by jar, posted 05-24-2006 8:57 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by kuresu, posted 05-25-2006 12:50 AM | | anglagard has not replied | | | Message 29 by jar, posted 05-25-2006 9:32 AM | | anglagard has replied |
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: 03-24-2006
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Message 28 of 45 (315051)
05-25-2006 12:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 27 by anglagard
05-25-2006 12:15 AM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
ironically for the US, we get cleaner the further back in our history., compared to the last half-century. Go figure, doing things backwards again.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by anglagard, posted 05-25-2006 12:15 AM | | anglagard has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 29 of 45 (315094)
05-25-2006 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 27 by anglagard
05-25-2006 12:15 AM
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Re: The US learned from the experience of other Empires.
Would you consider the very existence of Panama as an act of Imperialism? Was there some particular reason that you excluded Diem from your list of CIA manipulated government leaders? He was chosen and installed by the US, supported by the US, and overthrown with the financial and political support of the US.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by anglagard, posted 05-25-2006 12:15 AM | | anglagard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by anglagard, posted 05-25-2006 7:57 PM | | jar has not replied |
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6383 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: 07-30-2004
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Message 30 of 45 (315164)
05-25-2006 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by anglagard
05-24-2006 11:46 PM
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Off topic aside on the US A-bobms
I've also always thought the US was more or less out of both Plutonium and Uranium after the first three bombs. I know I got that idea by reading it but I don't remember where (it was long before the Web, so it had to be in a book or a newspaper article). If I get the chance I'll do some digging and see if I can find some sort of official version from the US Military or Government.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by anglagard, posted 05-24-2006 11:46 PM | | anglagard has not replied |
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