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Author Topic:   GOP FRAUD
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 127 (152278)
10-23-2004 1:03 PM


GOP Voter Drive Accused of Tossing Cards (click for full article)
In several battleground states across the country, a consulting firm funded by the Republican National Committee has been accused of deceiving would-be voters and destroying Democratic voter registration cards.
Sproul declined to name the states in which his company conducted registration drives. His political consulting firm was founded last year and has received nearly $500,000 from the RNC since July, according to federal election records.
Former canvassers such as Banse have come forward in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Nevada and Oregon in the past two weeks alleging they were told to register only Republicans and to ``walk away'' from people who said they intended to vote for Democrat John Kerry.
It is illegal to tamper with voter registration cards, which are numbered and issued by local election officials. In some states, including Oregon, such acts are felonies.
Now in seven states and counting.
This is not a football game people: this is the heart of freedom, liberty, justice and equality, and the venality of the GOP to play fast and loose with it shows how corrupt and immoral they are.
I would like to see anyone justify this behavior ... any takers?
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-03-2005 20:01 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 2:35 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 26 by Dr Jack, posted 10-25-2004 10:34 AM RAZD has replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6452 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 2 of 127 (152300)
10-23-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
10-23-2004 1:03 PM


If true, there is no justification for it, and it should be prosecuted.
While we are at it let's also prosecute the Democrat vote fraud:
-votes for crack cocaine case in Ohio,
CNN.com - Mary Poppins prompts investigation - Oct 18, 2004
-attempted exclusion of Republican voter registrations in Florida
by the extreme leftist group ACORN
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/2/183158.shtml
Let's not mention the Democrats preferring that convicted felons vote, but not active duty military personnel...
Are you sure you want to go here ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2004 1:03 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2004 3:15 PM paisano has replied
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 10-23-2004 3:27 PM paisano has replied
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:33 AM paisano has not replied
 Message 22 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:41 AM paisano has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 127 (152306)
10-23-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by paisano
10-23-2004 2:35 PM


yes, let's go there.
that the democratic party has had to adopt techniques used by the neocons is not a surprise.
that either group will resort to questionable methods is also not a surprise.
the surprise is that people are complacent about it or even seem to approve of it.
yes I want to go there: get all the facts on the table, all the accusations and all the evidence and prosecute the pants off of those responsible for wrong-doing.
and when it come to who should be elegible to vote, may I suggest one that the revolutionary war was based on: taxation without representation is tyranny ...
... if you pay taxes to a local community you should get a vote in that community, when you pay taxes in a state you should get a vote in that state, and if you pay taxes to the feceral government then you should get a vote in that government.
whether you are a crack-head or a multi-millionare ceo with homes in 15 states.
the questin should not be who can vote and who can run, but how that vote can be counted to end up with the best result for the country.
and your list is only a few hundred total, while the GOP fraud involves thousands.
people who want to believe that their side is being the moral guide will ignore evidence to the contrary.
yes, lets go there.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 2:35 PM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 3:57 PM RAZD has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 127 (152308)
10-23-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by paisano
10-23-2004 2:35 PM


So, on one hand, you've got a massive campaign of voter fraud perpatrated by a multi-state organization taking money directly from the GOP.
On the other, you've got isolated incidents of potential fraud occuring without input from the DNC.
Exactly where do you get any kind of equivalency from this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 2:35 PM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 3:39 PM crashfrog has replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6452 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 5 of 127 (152312)
10-23-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
10-23-2004 3:27 PM


So, on one hand, you've got a massive campaign of voter fraud perpatrated by a multi-state organization taking money directly from the GOP.
Correction, you have allegations of this, at this point. I don't see nay hard evidence in the article. If someone is arrested and charged, get back to me.
In the Ohio case, someone has been arrested and charged.
By the way, since when are the NAACP and ACORN not large, multi-state organizations ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 10-23-2004 3:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 127 (152318)
10-23-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by paisano
10-23-2004 3:39 PM


By the way, since when are the NAACP and ACORN not large, multi-state organizations ?
Well, I've never heard of ACORN. Maybe they are what you say they are.
Are either being paid by the DNC?

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 Message 5 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 3:39 PM paisano has not replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6452 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 7 of 127 (152319)
10-23-2004 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
10-23-2004 3:15 PM


Re: yes, let's go there.
Correct me If I am wrong, but is not voter registration avaliable at the motor vehicle department in most states? And at city halls, county courthouses, town and village halls, etc ?
Do you have hard evidence...not allegations, but hard evidence...that any group is being barred from registering at these venues ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2004 3:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2004 4:17 PM paisano has replied
 Message 23 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:47 AM paisano has not replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 10-25-2004 10:36 AM paisano has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 127 (152327)
10-23-2004 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by paisano
10-23-2004 3:57 PM


Re: yes, let's go there.
so?
we are talking about people who intentionally let others think they are doing them a service to get them registered, thus leaving them free to shop at the mall rather than go register.
and then throwing away any registration that isn't republican
that is fraud.
and again: why shouldn't every single person in the US be allowed to vote? what is special about being a citizen, a registered voter that is different?
this country is supposed to be about equality, justice, freedom and liberty, and NOT about being good enough to be a citizen by some arbitrary standard that half the people don't qualify under anyway.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by paisano, posted 10-23-2004 3:57 PM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 127 (152338)
10-23-2004 4:43 PM


I feel that it should be absolutely illegal to identify any party affilitations on voter registrations. That way no one would know which registrations to tamper with and the problem would not exist.
It would mean that states would have to have "open" primaries and I can understand why some party loyalists are against that. But that can be dealt with by the parties themselves. They could have their own conventions (or private primaries, or some such thing) and then offer up only their one chosen candidate for any given office. Personally, I don't like the primary election process excepting for non-partisan positions where the two highest vote getters then face off in a general election.
Verzem

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 127 (152351)
10-23-2004 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Verzem
10-23-2004 4:43 PM


heh
see http://EvC Forum: A Voting Declaration of Rights
how about national primaries where the selection of all the candidates is winnowed down to a smaller number?
say a primary where you vote {YES or NO} for each candidate and the top 10 go to a second round in a month with DEBATES in between
the "secondary" would then winnow it down to the top 5 candidates, who then choose running mates and participate in more debates until the final vote, where each possible pair combination (10 for 5 candidates) is used to pick ALL your preferences among the 5?
have all the registration issues settled through voting in the primary ... use this as a registration tool.
there are ways to improve the voting system, and this should be done so that we can have the best voting system in the world: there is no reason to demand less is there?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Verzem
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 127 (152511)
10-24-2004 7:15 AM


IMO, that would be better than what we have now.
What I am concerned about is that if we have something happen like happened in 2000, or worse; we will be held in ridicule to the world who will then question whether the U.S. is qualified to impose elections on other countries.
Maybe the U.N. needs to oversee the U.S. election!
Verzem

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 10-24-2004 9:37 AM Verzem has not replied
 Message 60 by contracycle, posted 10-29-2004 8:29 AM Verzem has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 127 (152517)
10-24-2004 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Verzem
10-24-2004 7:15 AM


and least in the third world states like florida ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Verzem, posted 10-24-2004 7:15 AM Verzem has not replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6452 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 13 of 127 (152523)
10-24-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
10-23-2004 4:17 PM


Re: yes, let's go there.
why shouldn't every single person in the US be allowed to vote?
Aside from the fact that it's unconstitutional and illegal ?
Because citizenship is a matter of state soverignty and entails responsibilities as well as rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2004 4:17 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 10-24-2004 1:37 PM paisano has replied
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 Message 16 by nator, posted 10-24-2004 6:01 PM paisano has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 127 (152533)
10-24-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by paisano
10-24-2004 10:31 AM


Aside from the fact that it's unconstitutional and illegal ?
To what degree is it unconstitutional? The Constitution is very clear about what criteria cannot be used to deny the vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by paisano, posted 10-24-2004 10:31 AM paisano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by paisano, posted 10-24-2004 6:59 PM crashfrog has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 127 (152575)
10-24-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by paisano
10-24-2004 10:31 AM


Re: yes, let's go there.
Let's talk about which party wants people to register to vote and which party does not.
The following is an excerpt from an explanation of the so called "Motor-Voter" system. This is a system which would reach many poor and underrepresented populations which tend to not have high voter turnout.
Bold added by me
The NVRA requires state agencies to register citizens to vote when they get drivers' licenses (hence "motor voter"), Food Stamps, Medicaid, AFDC and WIC as well as at agencies that provide services to people with disabilities.
Although the NVRA has proven to be a great opportunity to expand political participation, some politicians still see it simply as a threat. The lines have been drawn for a partisan battle.
Elected officials across the board fear changing the composition of the electorate that put them in office, but the attacks on motor voter have come almost exclusively from members of the Republican party. Many Republicans fear that new registrants will tend to vote Democratic. Some NVRA opponents have introduced bills to repeal the NVRA outright, others have refused to implement the NVRA in their states, and still others created plans to implement the law in minimal, ineffective ways.
On the first day of the 104th Congress, four Republicans introduced bills that would block implementation of motor voter: Sen. Coverdell (GA) introduced S. 91 to block implementation unless Federal funds are made available; Rep. Livingston (LA) and Manzullo (IL), each introduced separate bills (H.R. 60 and H.R. 326) to make the NVRA "voluntary;" and Rep. Stump (AZ) introduced H.R. 370 to repeal the NVRA. Rep. Linder (GA) later introduced H.R. 736, companion legislation to the Coverdell bill, and Sen. McConnell (KY) later introduced S. 218, another repeal effort.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-24-2004 05:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
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