|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 13/65 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
But he does answer it, basically by saying it isn't so, that God is not the author of sin, that it isn't biblical to think that way about sin, that those who end up in Hell do so because of their sin and not because God willed it. But it is (supposedly) your god that determined what sin is. And, as I understand it, your god determined that all of us, even the most innocent and helpless, are corrupt sinners just by virtue of being born? Our (supposed) sins were predetermined by your god and forced upon us all through no action of will of our own. All because some slick-talking snake spun the head of some ditzy broad? Something your god knowingly caused to happen to begin with? So "God is not the author of sin? Really? So, now, he stands before all humanity and (supposedly) says, I hate you all because you have committed deadly sin against me. Never mind that I gave you no choice in the matter, by my will you are all doomed to eternal damnation. Oh, except for you, you and you, and you, you, you and, yeah ok, you, whom by my will get eternal life because I am a loving god. The rest of you go to hell. "(T)hose who end up in Hell do so because of their sin and not because God willed it"? Really? If he can save you and he does not then you are doomed. There are only the two outcomes, right? If he hasn't willed your salvation then he has willed your damnation. Edited by AZPaul3, : The sad part is there are people who actually believe this shit.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: I believe that God created the possibility of evil. Satan actualized this possibility and humanity took a wrong turn---yet I agree that this was foreknown. God had a plan even before the transgression happened. By becoming fully human, Gods message to us was that there is a way out of the actualization of evil. The way out is the actualization of God in humanity...made possible by the mediator (Jesus Christ) But it is (supposedly) your god that determined what sin is. And, as I understand it, your god determined that all of us, even the most innocent and helpless, are corrupt sinners just by virtue of being born? Our (supposed) sins were predetermined by your god and forced upon us all through no action of will of our own. All because some slick-talking snake spun the head of some ditzy broad? Something your god knowingly caused to happen to begin with? So "God is not the author of sin? Really?Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Except the Calvinists do not believe that. I thought we were talking Calvin.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I just read the Spurgeon sermon. It says what I was trying to say. You did not actually say very much.
Again, he doesn't mention Calvin at all. I would still like to see how someone like Spurgeon reads Calvin, if he reads him to be saying that God authored anything to do with sin. Right. No mention of Calvin at all.
It certainly seems from this sermon that he couldn't believe that's what Calvin was claiming although so many here think that. You are confused. Spurgeon does not mention here Calvin at all. So how could this particular sermon tell you what he thinks Calvin is claiming? Perhaps Spurgeon simply places the Bible ahead of whatever Calvin might think.
quote: For Calvin, this would be nearly practically a doctrine of works. Because to Calvin, man is too corrupt to make any move towards God. Spurgeon is apparently Calvin lite. Perhaps all modern "Calvinists" are such. The Spurgeon Library | Page not found
quote: "I do in the main hold them" Not exactly a ringing endorsement for five point Calvinism.
quote: So there is no such thing as 'back sliding'? Do you agree with this? Is this even Biblical?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: It has been my understanding that you believe that no one knows or is capable of knowing, feeling, believing or experiencing God. Then you have simply not been reading what I write or comprehending what I write. What I have said repeatedly is that no one has ever explained how they might know or experience God and determine it is actually God and not just a bad burrito. I am a Christian and so yes, I do believe there is a God and I have never doubted anyone's beliefs. Nor have I ever doubted that people have feeling.
Phat writes: I maintain that it is about humanity in communion with God. Yes but can you support that position? Is God really the asshole pictured in the Jacob and Esua stories?
Phat writes: I have explained my belief--that through Jesus the mediator Communion is possible. And I do not doubt that is what you believe but you have never explained your belief but only asserted your belief; how does one know they are in communion with Jesus and what does it even mean to say you are in communion with Jesus.
Phat writes: quote:and thats the sad yet true reality. Humans are not interested in communion with God. Humans are simply interested in building their own little kingdom in the universe. You say it isn't all about God. I say it isn't all about us. Calvin would probably say that it is all about God and that humans are simply acting out the parts foreknown about us. I would disagree. God does not foreknow who is gonna be evil, only because we become the decisions that we make...by His Divine Grace. Our actions in the present determine the course of the future. Back on communion again I see, whatever that means. What possible connection can that have to the topic? What I say is that the stories in scripture are not all about God. Christianity screwed up royally when it tried to make a single book out of scripture and when it stopped teaching kids that it is NOT one book but many books with many different purposes. The fact that Faith tried to use a quote taken out of context as some proof text to support her position related to Gods position is a classic example of how the Christian Cult of Ignorance dogma related to the Bible destroys any worth or value to the message and prevents any form of critical thinking related to the subject. That approach also is the direct cause of the willful ignorance shown by Biblical Christians who claim Calvin could not mean what he wrote and the contradictions written in the Bible stories are not really contradictions and that God cannot be as evil as the God found in the Bible and that God is merciful for loving the cheating, swindler con man Jacob over the loving, kind, starving, victim Esau. Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
|
Spurgeon is apparently Calvin lite. I was going to make this point to Faith, but that doesn't ever get me anywhere. She keeps throwing out the word "hyper-Calvinism"... But what she refers to as hyper-Calvinism is just the plain old Calvinism that Calvin, himself, described. I was going to suggest that we just call that Calvinism and then come up with a new term for the watered-down Calvinism that she is talking about. I was thinking Quasi-Calvinism, but I do like Calvinism-Lite.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
|
First, I should state that Calvinism is not truly Biblical. That is, it relies on a selective view of scripture and dismisses the contrary verses on the assumption that if some verses support Calvinism none can contradict it - that the Bible presents a unified and coherent view of God. But this is neither stated by the Bible, nor true of the Bible. It is not following the Bible, it is a rejection of the actual Bible in favour of an imaginary Bible that follows human doctrine.
Predestination is difficult in one area - what should we do about it. And accusations of hyper-Calvinism against some extreme views on that count may well be justified. In another area, however, it is simple. If God has deliberately arranged for everything that happened before our birth, if there is no possibility that we could go against it then God bears the primary responsibility. It does not matter how God arranges it - even if God merely employs subtle and indirect manipulation, the fact of the inescapable nature of the manipulation is sufficient. Consider the laws on entrapment - and that human attempts at entrapment are never perfect and absolutely inescapable. Calvin's view that God is directly responsible for the Fall brings out the problem very clearly. Even if we are corrupt and miserable beings it is because God chose that we should be. And if God bears primary responsible then God must bear a greater share of the guilt, and deserves a greater share of the punishment. Even claiming that God is the judge is to no avail, since a judge who excuses himself from punishment is corrupt. The idea of Hell as infinite torment - already unjust for finite offences - is rendered even more clearly unjust. If we have free will to act against God's will, there is at least some possibility of justice in punishment for such violations. But if we do not then what could we be punished for ? Failing to go against God's will ? Surely that's absurd. For the natures God gave us, that we should be his tools ? How can that deserve punishment ? No, Calvinism exalts God's power, at the expense of God's character. And the appeals to a lack of understanding are just obfuscation. There is no difficulty here.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Heh, its like when I used to throw the Nintendo controller at the wall when I was pissed off at it because I fucked up in the game.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
...except that any "fuck-ups" are intentional
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are confused. Spurgeon does not mention here Calvin at all. So how could this particular sermon tell you what he thinks Calvin is claiming? Perhaps Spurgeon simply places the Bible ahead of whatever Calvin might think. I was assuming he considers himself a Calvinist but if not then not. Calvinists do not think Calvin made God the author of sin, though I haven't yet found a discussion that makes it clear why not. If I do I may post on it here. But I'm going to leave it for now. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Calvinists do not think Calvin made God the author of sin It's not hard to see why they would reject such a characterization. That particular formulation expresses the concept we are discussing in what must be the among the most off putting, provocative way possible. I expect Calvinists to deny such. But predestination, unconditional election, and total depravity really don't leave much room for humans to bear any responsibility for their own fate. If humans are inherently unworthy, blaming a man for his condition is like blaming gun powder for being explosive.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I still hope to find a discussion somewhere that addresses what Calvin said. I'm happy to oblige. Let's hear from Calvin. He takes it that God is so sovereign over everything, and human events in particular, that nothing can happen without, not only his permission or his foreknowledge, but his active and positive will:
* If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment. Calvin is not afraid to draw the immediate corollaries from this thesis. So he insists that God arranged (and did not merely foresee) the fall of Adam:
* I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. * Nor, indeed, is there any probability in the thing itselfviz. that man brought death upon himself merely by the permission, and not by the ordination of God; as if God had not determined what he wished the condition of the chief of his creatures to be. And it is by the will of God that Adam's descendants inherited their sinful nature, since such a thing couldn't happen by natural causes, but only by an express miracle:
* Predestination is manifest in Adam’s posterity. It was not owing to nature that they all lost salvation by the fault of one parent. [...] Scripture proclaims that all were, in the person of one, made liable to eternal death. As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God. * I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree. But God is not content merely to miraculously give us a sinful nature and see how that plays out. That would derogate from his sovereignty. Instead, he determines which sinful actions and even sinful thoughts we should have, so that we couldn't so much as think of doing something wrong without God expressly commanding it:
* The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands. * By his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. * That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture. * Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. * God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections. * Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. * These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence. * God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases. * The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence. Now, to those who wonder why God should damn men for being just as sinful as he made them, for committing just those sins which he decided they should commit, and for going against God's will when in fact we never do, and never can do, anything but obey it, Calvin has a great answer: shut up asking questions and stop thinking about it. This is indeed one of the most consistent themes of his theology. Let's have some quotations.
* Nay, when we cannot comprehend how God can will that to be done which he forbids us to do, let us call to mind our imbecility, and remember that the light in which he dwells is not without cause termed inaccessible (1 Tim. 6:16), because shrouded in darkness. * The procedure of divine justice is too high to be scanned by human measure, or comprehended by the feebleness of human intellect. * I say with Augustine, that the Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknow, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the divine will. * From the feebleness of our intellect, we cannot comprehend how, though after a different manner, he wills and wills not the very same thing. * The reprobate suffer nothing which is not accordant with the most perfect justice. When unable clearly to ascertain the reason, let us not decline to be somewhat in ignorance in regard to the depths of the divine wisdom. * If at any time thoughts of this kind come into the minds of the pious, they will be sufficiently armed to repress them, by considering how sinful it is to insist on knowing the causes of the divine will. * Wherefore, let us not decline to say with Augustine, God could change the will of the wicked into good, because he is omnipotent. Clearly he could. Why, then, does he not do it? Because he is unwilling. Why he is unwilling remains with himself, (August. de Genes. ad Lit. Lib. 2). We should not attempt to be wise above what is meet. * Now, look at the narrowness of your own minds and say whether it can comprehend the decrees of God. Why then should you, by infatuated inquisitiveness, plunge yourselves into an abyss which reason itself tells you will prove your destruction? If I may now editorialize a bit, this is a copout. Inquiring into the nature of God is pretty much a theologian's job description. Calvin certainly doesn't shy away from it, nor in particular from explaining God's motives --- see for example bk. 1 ch. 5 par. 1, ch. 6 par. 1, ch. 8 par. 4, ch. 12 par. 1, bk. 2 ch. 1 par 1, bk. 2 ch. 7 par 1 --- well, I needn't go on digging up examples. But when Calvin finds himself painted into a corner, when any man, woman or child would want to cry: "But why --- how --- can a good and just God be as you depict him?" then Calvin stops doing theology just long enough to tell us that theological inquiries are impious and sinful and we're too dumb to understand the answers anyway. Then he gets back to telling us what God thinks. One has the feeling one would get if, having sawed a lady in half, the conjurer declined to put her back together, explaining that it's too hard and we shouldn't expect it of him, so would we kindly stop staring at the mess on the stage and watch while he pulls a silk handkerchief out of his ear. Likewise, here stands Calvin in the spotlight, he's cut God off at the knees, he hasn't left him with a leg to stand on, and then he blandly announces: "And now, for my next trick ..." Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Dear Dr. A., brilliant and knowledgeable though I know you to be, it is not YOUR opinion of Calvin I'm interested in. I want to know what the Calvinists themselves do with the difficult passages. I found an article about Jonathan Edwards on Calvin but it didn't really do what I want.
But I've also come to the conclusion that not only is this topic tedious and depressing, it too often leads to ugly opinions and I really do not want to discuss it any more. Being aware of God's sovereignty in all things reminds me to thank Him for all things that happen to me, even the things that are not at all pleasant, and that's enough for me. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I do have another article bookmarked that may answer the question, but the gun control thread has been keeping me from it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
|
I'm happy to oblige. Let's hear from Calvin. Dear Dr. A, as well as I know you can copy and paste, I don't want to know what Calvin actually said, but what people who agree with Calvin say that explains away the most perverse and vile parts of what Calvin said.Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024