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Author Topic:   "Creation Science" experiments.
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 135 of 396 (581690)
09-16-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
09-16-2010 9:21 PM


Re: Creation/ID "Science" and Discovery
Hi Taq,
So what kind of deposits can this supposed global flood not produce?
I have asked it several times in this thread. You have yet to answer it.
You do realize that asking me a thousand times won't answer the question I had just asked you (which you quoted):
quote:
And how many creationist geologist have you actually asked this question for a null hypothesis ?
Yeah I'm a creationist, but I'm not a geologist. I study math and physics. I do the best to answer the questions I can, but I don't have all the answers. As I said, formulate your question adequately and submit it to CMI here: The page you requested was not found on our site - creation.com.
If you really want to have a complete answer. If you don't do it, don't come around and complain again creationists have no answer for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 09-16-2010 9:21 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2010 11:24 PM slevesque has replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 137 of 396 (581694)
09-16-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Coragyps
09-16-2010 9:53 PM


Re: Creation/ID "Science" and Discovery
File that statement along with a note to look up "angle of repose" until we get to the Coconino Sandstone.
Or do your own experiment with making sand piles with 25-degree sides under water.
Is the angle really 25-degree in the coconino sandstone ? Because googling ''angle of repose sand dunes'' gives an overall angle of repose of sand dunes of 34 degrees.
I'm having a bit more trouble finding the angle of repose for underwater sand waves, the closest I have been to finding anything relevant is this page: http://www.civl.port.ac.uk/...0Docs/Angle%20of%20repose.html
Which gives an angle of 25-degree for wet sand.
So at first glance, considering a desert would have produced angles of 34-35 degrees, and that water conditions would have that numbered lowered (25 degrees would not seem unreasonable at first glance) it seems as though this all is evidence for the 'water deposition' hypothesis versus 'dry desert formation'.
And at second glance, this could be a partial answer to Taq's question. A flood would not produce a sandstone with a 34-35 degree angle of repose.
AbE It seems at least one secular geologist proposes that the coconino sandstone was deposited by water and seems to be usign the angle of repose as evidence for this:
Visher, G.S., 1990. Exploration Stratigraphy, 2nd edition, Penn Well Publishing Co., Tulsa, Oklahoma, pp. 211—213.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Coragyps, posted 09-16-2010 9:53 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Coragyps, posted 09-17-2010 10:41 AM slevesque has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 138 of 396 (581699)
09-16-2010 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Nij
09-16-2010 10:11 PM


Re: Creation/ID "Science" and Discovery
Hi Nij,
And when you have tens of thousands of different scientists from hundreds of different cultures and religions all finding the same data and coming to the same conclusions, why do you think this is confirmation bias rather than just confirmation?
I was just stating a natural aspect of science. Unless you wish to suggest scientists come to the lab with no beliefs and expectations on what they should find today ?
Besides, your statement is a gross misrepresentation of the situation. It isn't 99% of the scientific community all agreeing upon the same conclusion and a handful of creationists on the sideline.
Need I point out that the first people to invalidate the global flood myth were in fact those who went looking specifically to demonstrate that it was true?
Well, I guess you do need to name these persons.
Name one prediction that was made by the creationist model and turned out to be correct. By prediction I mean "something that could have falisified the concept should it turn out any other way". By "correct" I don't mean "gerrymandered into fitting the a priori assumptions of the Bible being perfect".
Baumgardner's Catastrophic plate tectonics model, which he modeled in the 80's predicted that the tectonic plates subducted at great speed into the earth's mantle. In other words, with such a quick subductions so recent in the past, we should be able to detect this 'cold plates' at the base of the mantle.
This was in fact observed 10 years later, when the required technology was developped, the cold material was found as predicted. (S.P. Grand, Mantle shear structure beneath the Americas and surrounding oceans, Journal of Geophysical Research 99:11591—11621, 1994; J.E. Vidale, A snapshot of whole mantle flow, Nature 370:16—17, 1994.)
This is in fact contrary to the uniformitarian view of plate tectonics, since at today's slow rate, the plates would simply melt inch by inch as they slowly went into the mantle.
ICR and AIG collect thousands each year from donations.
Idiots like Michael Behe and Ken Ham earn hundreds of thousands each year from their book sales.
Kent Hovind owned 10 properties which were seized after he was convicted of owing US$600000 in taxes from a 3 year period; that's 200K a year, which means he and/or his company earned at least a million dollars each year through book and merchandise sales. That is, in fact, what was reported as quoted here. His theme park was earning that much on its own.
Thousands of donations isn't much when you consider the amount of employees they have, and all the rest, don't you think ? When you consider that research projects can go in the millions (as was the case with the RATE) it is expected that they research a lot less then publicly funded researchers.
Behe is not a creationist.
And Hovind is an idiot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Nij, posted 09-16-2010 10:11 PM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2010 7:47 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2010 8:34 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 145 by Theodoric, posted 09-17-2010 10:03 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 147 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2010 11:02 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 152 by Taq, posted 09-17-2010 12:14 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 165 by Nij, posted 09-18-2010 1:30 AM slevesque has not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 139 of 396 (581701)
09-17-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Coyote
09-16-2010 11:24 PM


Re: Experiment
We both know how this will turn out. I'll ask
''how do we know this is 4,5k year old dirt ?''
''well we just have to date it with dating methods''
''but I think the dating methdos are flawed''
''Blind assertion. Prove it''
''Well the RATE research has produced multiple lines of evidence suggesting this''
ANd this point I'm unassure of the approach you'll take. It'll be either
''The RATE research is just religious apologetics disguised as science. It's BS''
or
''The RATE research tried to do science, but ended up saying godidit to explain away their own data. So it's BS''
And then I'll say
''I disagree. You are misrepresenting what they said,. stupid strawman is stupid''
....
This is usually where it ends when we end up discussing this with one another.
SO yeah, I just saved us a page of discussion. (I guess if I either had the time, or you had an extreme load of patience, we could start a 'great debate' about the RATE research. But I don't have a lot of time)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2010 11:24 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Coyote, posted 09-17-2010 12:25 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 141 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2010 6:26 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 150 by Taq, posted 09-17-2010 12:04 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 382 by nator, posted 10-20-2010 8:55 AM slevesque has not replied

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