Data, Information, and all that....

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.
Nothing does.

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Wrong, most everything does.

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"What Is Information?
Information, in its connotation in physics, is a measure of order -- a universal measure applicable to any structure, any system. It quantifies the instructions that are needed to produce a certain organization. ... In general, then, we compute the information inherent in any given arrangement of matter (or energy) from the number of choices we must make to arrive at that particular arrangement among all equally possible ones." (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p6-7)
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That's a physics specific definition, please show that
it is relvant to biological systems.

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Did you happen to catch the title of the book???

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That DNA contains information is a no-brainer - it's completely obvious - it's self-evident - it needs no support.

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So it's an assumption on your part then?

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No, it's something so self-evident that only an irrational or dishonest person would continue to disagree.1) Logic tells us that DNA contains information:

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In Part I of the text we discussed the presence of genes on chromosomes that control phenotypic traits and the way in which the chromosomes are transmitted through gametes to future offspring. Logically, some form of information must be contained in genes, which, when passed to a new generation, influences the form and characteristics of the offspring; this is called the genetic information. (emphasis added, Concepts of Genetics: Fifth Edition, William S Klug & Michael R Cummings, Prentice Hall, 1997, p262)

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2) The slew of other quotes I provided from mainstream biologists/chemists tells us that DNA contains information3) So does the web site I've linked to where the scientists actually measured the information contained in certain regions of DNA.Arguing against all of this is like arguing that the Earth is flat: something that no one who is both rational and honest could do.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-16-2003]

DNAUnion, I'd like to know a bit more about RNA, I'm guessing your in the 'know' after reading your posts. Is it true it exists only to protect DNA?(ofcourse I'm layman) If it's off topic maybe I could open a new topic? - if your uninterested fair enough, it's a busy time of the year ofcourse.

The three main types of RNA are used to make proteins. mRNA carries INFORMATION from DNA to the ribosomes, rRNA is part of the ribosome (proteins are also present), and tRNA brings the amino acids specified by the codons being "read" by the ribosome, to the ribosome.

As a layman I'm a little confused I think I get some of that. Basically I agree with you about information, but I am unknowledgable about the subject so I don't qualify to take part in the debate.So RNA are used to make proteins, I'm wondering how these sort of things could evolve - I think it probably is another topic though.
- so it provides information to/ and makes up the ribosomes also?
Know of any websites? - so I can stop bothering you![This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-16-2003]

Funnily enough, not having access to the book
sort of makes it hard to find the connection
that it suggests ... the title tells very little
apart ... one could say in contains insufficient
information.Perhaps an on-line reference covers the material?
Or perhaps you would like to answer the question
based upon your understanding of the material?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the logic that is
so glaringly obvious that I am missing it.I am aware that 'information' is used in an analgous sense
when referring to genomes, and I am also aware that the
term 'information' is used (in a different context) to indicate
the 'size' of a genome. That information usage is the
data-processing one and is referring to the number of bits
required to store the sequences.Perhaps we are at odds with the definitions of information,
many and multi-farious as they be.You have stated that information is the reduction in uncertainty.Whose uncertainty or the uncertainty of what is reduced
by DNA?If I were to randomly add bases to a DNA sequence and
the emerging sequence became closer and closer to
one that produces a known protein would I be increasing
the information (as you see it) in the genome?'Redcution in uncertainty' and 'template for organism' are two
very different views of 'information' which is closer to
your view?My normal 'information' concept is a soft-systems one, in
which 'meaning' or some similar concept is required.

And so I guess neither have I. Gould in Chapter 10 of his legless"structure" book suggested that NO ONE would presume to argue that a classic convergence would be asserted a parallel SIMPLY because the two organics had DNA and yet he raised the issue if hoxology which sounded like doxology could yet surpass his reading of GENESIS by pitting Mayr against Dobshanksy without thinking if baraminology of the SHAPES of frogs=turtles, snakes=apodans, lizards=salamanders remands the difference of interphylum comparisons of death tiggers,engulmentviamolecular action and coded degradation(is apoptosis an extension of the digestive system and is not the liver but a terminal (in Gould's sense of heterochrony)conserved apoptotic regime??) Let me not get started just yet. I will need traveling mercies. I can answer from the creationist's position and if the evolutionist details of topobioloigcal reality hold I will also be able to show that the flip occurred IN THE PHYLETIC LINEAGE which Gould missed because he did not seperate forms by phylogenetic disconinuties (which the molecular data will vote yeah or neigh on..)but rejected both Dobshanksy and Mayr IN THE SAME HISTORICAL SENSE of Goethe and Geoffroy while attempting to answer Darwin's eye for Croizat's map. Oh well. I hate it when I can read that others will likely not. Ill explain later. The issue of DNA and INFORMATION as is often discussed c/e wise is WHO Gould's "no one would argue" ARE. So there are some ones...Whether there are only psychologies of this illusion I doubt but I will need to double the pagination of Gould's Chapter 10 to do so and the O-RingATANG did not find it as a past time.

There is information in everything, with this I would agree. Perhaps to get to the point that a few people are trying to make, how much information is there in Carbon. For example, if hydrogen is bound to each valence, you get methane. If a hydroxyl group is bound to one of those valences and hydrogen to the rest, you get methanol. It would make sense that there is information in the valences of carbon in order to have all of these possible states.What I think we are all leary of is the "information only comes from intelligence" that we are all tired of hearing, only because the logic behind this statement is lacking. This is why we need a better definition of the TYPE of information that is being alluded to here. Is it information in the Gitt sense, in the derived sense, so forth.Not to DNAunion in particular, but can everyone agree on an answer for the following questions:1) Is it possible for new information to arise in the genome? If not, what would new information look like in the genome?2) Is the information in a genome due to random mutation + natural selection? If not, why?3) Can an artificial sequence inserted into the genome become information through mutation and selection?4) Can the information in a genome increase with specific mutation selected artificially?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the logic that is
so glaringly obvious that I am missing it. Perhaps you merely have a deeper knowledge/understanding of the topic than the average person does.I am aware that 'information' is used in an analgous sense
when referring to genomes, and I am also aware that the
term 'information' is used (in a different context) to indicate
the 'size' of a genome. That information usage is the
data-processing one and is referring to the number of bits
required to store the sequences. You are correct in that the term 'information' is used to mean different things (as are many words in all languages).Perhaps we are at odds with the definitions of information,
many and multi-farious as they be. No, I wouldn't say that we were "at odds". I would say (as my initial post indicated) that this being a very complex subject, and time being limited, it is best to use common sense and not quibble about the obvious.

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'Information' is often thought of as containing 'instructions' for something. You would gather 'information' if you wished to travel from an address in Paris, France to an address in San Francisco, United States of America, without getting lost, right?

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Similarly, you would need 'information' if you wanted to successfully operate the Protein Assembler Machine (PAM). The PAM works like this : you input a specific sequence of different amino acids and the PAM assembles these amino acids in the precise sequential order that you entered them. Of course, if you want a particular protein to be produced then you must input the precise amino acid sequence. Otherwise the PAM randomly selects amino acids and assembles them - who knows what will come out! Therefore, good 'information' is needed to operate the PAM.You have stated that information is the reduction in uncertainty. This is, as you know, one way to look at it.Whose uncertainty or the uncertainty of what is reduced by DNA? All of this relates to the elimination of possible contingencies. The subject is, as you may know, Peter, vast. Amino acids, for example, have no preferred combinatorial affinity and, hence, any sequence is equally probable. So why are only certain sequences produced? Because the 'information' - the 'instructions' - in the DNA eliminates the myriads of possible combinations and allows only those combinations that are specified to be produced.If I were to randomly add bases to a DNA sequence and
the emerging sequence became closer and closer to
one that produces a known protein would I be increasing
the information (as you see it) in the genome? You say something later that answers this question ...'Redcution in uncertainty' and 'template for organism' are two
very different views of 'information' which is closer to
your view?My normal 'information' concept is a soft-systems one, in
which 'meaning' or some similar concept is required. ... and this is what I alluded to a second ago. The concept of 'information' in the Shannon (statistical) sense is fine for data transmission, storage, compressibility, etc... but it is not adequate for a comprehensive definition of 'information'.

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Your statement correctly asserts that there are other aspects of 'information' that must be considered in these types of discussions (e.g., discussing the genome). Specifically, semantical and syntactical aspects, as well as others, are all part of the bigger picture (and a vast picture it is!).

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Joralex

Unfortunately, I don't know of any websites that explain these processes or have diagrams of them. All my info in from my college texts.If this helps you find something...the two key processes involving the 3 main types of RNA are transcription (where an RNA molecule - mRNA, tRNA, or rRNA - is made from the information stored in DNA) and translation (where a polypeptide is made from the information stored in mRNA, with the help of rRNA and tRNA).

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.
Nothing does.

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Wrong, most everything does.

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"What Is Information?
Information, in its connotation in physics, is a measure of order -- a universal measure applicable to any structure, any system. It quantifies the instructions that are needed to produce a certain organization. ... In general, then, we compute the information inherent in any given arrangement of matter (or energy) from the number of choices we must make to arrive at that particular arrangement among all equally possible ones." (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p6-7)
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That's a physics specific definition, please show that
it is relvant to biological systems.

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Did you happen to catch the title of the book???

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Funnily enough, not having access to the book sort of makes it hard to find the connection that it suggests ... the title tells very little apart ... one could say in contains insufficient information.

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Besides the title, I also posted this...TWICE.

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For some single-celled organisms whose DNA nucleotide strings have only a fraction of the length of those in our own cells, we can make a crude estimate of the information content. The DNA of an amoeba (a nonsocial one), for example, holds on the order of 10^9 bits. In other words, one billion yes/no instructions are written down in that four-letter script — enough to make another amoeba. This script contains everything an amoeba ever needs to know — how to make its enzymes, how to make its cell membrane, how to slink about, how to digest the foodstuffs, how to react when it gets too dry or too hot, how to reproduce itself. And all of that information is enscrolled into a space so small you would need a good microscope to make it out. If you wanted to give all these instructions in the English language, they would fill some 300 volumes of the size of this book (the information content of an average printed page in English is roughly 10,000 bits). (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R. Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p16)

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That suffices. But here's some more. After going in a little more depth on the equations (the base is still I = -log2(1/n)), he states.

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"This is the equation that Claude Shannon set forth in a theorem in the 1940s, a classic in information theory.

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Thus defined, information is a universal measure that can be applied equally well to a row of cards, a sequence of amino acids, a score of music, an arrangement of flowers, a cluster of cells, or a configuration of stars." (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R. Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p8)

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The "-log2(1/n)"-type of information applies to biology.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-16-2003]

We read it the first time. Would you like to comment on the bits of information contained in one carbon atom? Since it has four possible valences it should contain information, just like there are four possible nucleotides. Do the R groups attached to carbon give it information? By your definitions, it does contain information. If it didn't contain information, then mass, density, and reactivity would not occur. Attachment of R groups give the carbon atom specificty.

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Besides the title, I also posted this...TWICE.

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We read it the first time.

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No, we didn't. Peter missed it. Or at the least he missed the fact that it was from the same book that he doubted related that type of information to biology.

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Would you like to comment on the bits of information contained in one carbon atom?

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I already replied to you on carbon vs. DNA in the other thread. Here it is.

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If an atom holds information, how special is DNA in this respect. How do you separate the information found in one atom and the information found in a polymer?

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One reason is probability.

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Under undirected, nonbiological conditions, the probability that carbon will bond with 4 other atoms or groups of atoms is very high, but the probability that hemoglobin will form is virtually zero. For hemoglobin to exist - not just one copy, but copy after copy, and in cell after cell, and in human after human, and in generation after generation - there has to be some information that stores the instructions needed to produce it. Can you guess where that information is stored?

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[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-16-2003]

Thanks DNA'
I think I get it. RNA is made from DNA information, but polypeptides are made up from information in RNA.Also, The ribosome particles help making the polypeptides. The ribosome contains the protein and RNA.- Am I close? - Probably not[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-16-2003]