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Author Topic:   How the brain produces self awareness
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 50 (290647)
02-26-2006 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by lfen
02-26-2006 3:59 PM


Re: Lets refocus on the OP
Does Beethoven's Fifth Symphony matter? Does Shakespeare's "Hamlet" matter? Darwin's Origin of the Species? The Sistine Chapel? The Gospel of John? The planet earth? The sun? The universe? What is the matter? To whom does it matter?
No, they don't matter. I mean objectively they don't matter any more than the crawl of a cockroach across the floor matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by lfen, posted 02-26-2006 3:59 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by lfen, posted 02-26-2006 4:32 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 50 by lfen, posted 02-27-2006 2:19 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 47 of 50 (290649)
02-26-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by robinrohan
02-26-2006 1:10 PM


If our thoughts are physical events, then they are physically caused as well, meaning they are also automatic reactions to stimuli. An automatic reaction to a stimulus involves no free will, anymore than water running downhill, and therefore we cannot prefer one thing to another. We just seem to. There's no one available to do the prefering.
Wait, wait. There can be preferences without a preferrer! One of the earliest robots was a little photocell mechanism that had cybernetic feedback so that it avoided dark areas and sought out light areas.
You seem to be equating physical to mean passive uncomplex things like rocks and water that can be described by elementary physic equations.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by robinrohan, posted 02-26-2006 1:10 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 48 of 50 (290652)
02-26-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by robinrohan
02-26-2006 4:19 PM


Re: Lets refocus on the OP
I mean objectively they don't matter any more than the crawl of a cockroach across the floor matters.
Objectively! Objectively? What if object is all illusion? What if there is only subject? Then nothing matters objectively because there are no objects there is only the subject? This is one way to express a formulation of the nondual viewpoint.
You, Robin, the subject are experiencing a conflict created by a paradox of your own creating in that you have created objects for which you are the subject. This is an eastern explanation of what perhaps the originators of the Fall story were dealing with. The Fall into the split of subject and object. This has uses. Science for example as well as other classes of knowledge but with it comes suffering of feelings of alienation, meaninglessness, etc.
When this sense of duality of subject and object drop away there is only the subject except then it's no longer a subject it is simply being, what is.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 02-26-2006 4:19 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 49 of 50 (290653)
02-26-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by robinrohan
02-26-2006 11:11 AM


Re: What's wrong with you?
I think you need to work on developing your private sense of incorporeality. Here's an exercise for you: Lie in bed in a quiet room and start imagining that your feet do not exist. Work your way up slowly, and then you will have the feeling that your lower extremities are missing. I've never made it past mid-thigh. If you make it all the way, you will have a transcendental experience. That's what I imagine anyway.
Something like this?
I was thus brought very near Maharshi's seat. Our discussions over, I heard Maharshi say, "He is concentrating on the reflection and complains that he cannot see the original."
It struck me forcefully. What did he mean by reflection and what was the original? I shut my eyes and tried to find out the meaning. Immediately after, I felt a pull in the region of the heart, similar to what I felt two days previously but much stronger in intensity. My mind was completely arrested -- stilled, but I was wide awake.
Suddenly, without any break in my consciousness, the "I" flashed forth! It was self-awareness, pure and simple, steady, unbroken and intensely bright, as much brighter than ordinary consciousness as is sunlight brighter than the dim light of a lamp.
In ordinary consciousness the "I"-sense dimly remains in the background -- as a matter of inference or intuition -- the whole of the consciousness being occupied by the object. Here, "I" came to the foreground, occupied, or rather became, the whole consciousness, and intensely existed as pure consciousness, displacing all objects.
I was, but I was neither the subject nor the object of this consciousness. I WAS this consciousness, which alone existed. There were no objects. The world was not, neither the body nor the mind -- no thought, no motion; time also ceased to exist. I alone existed and that I was consciousness itself, self-luminous and alone, without a second... Suddenly, and again without any break in my consciousness, I was brought back to my normal, ordinary consciousness.
The I Flashed Forth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by robinrohan, posted 02-26-2006 11:11 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4705 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 50 of 50 (290904)
02-27-2006 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by robinrohan
02-26-2006 4:19 PM


nihilism or nirvana?
Robin,
Seems like you haven't found my thoughts of use. I will try one last thing. I came across this explanation by Wayne Liquorman that I think expresses well how the same view can be experienced as nihilism or liberation.
As the Zen folks say when you start Zen, rivers and mountains are seen as rivers and mountains. Then as you progress in the process of seeking in Zen, rivers and mountains cease to be rivers and mountains because now you are seeing the illusory nature of these things. They are not real. They are not true. They have no independent existence. There's no inherent validity in them. Therefore they don't really exist. And this is the point that most of the seekers find themselves in to varying degrees. This can be a very liberating sense or it can be a very depressing, dislocating kind of awareness. The mind comes in with a nihilistic negative association to all that and says, "Well, if it's not real then it doesn't have any value; it's all meaningless." But when there is awakening, when there is this seeing, when there is this knowing, then the rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again. This phenomenal manifestation is seen as part of the Total, and although it has no independent existence it is a part of the One, an aspect of the One. As such it has reality. It has substance.
http://www.advaita.org/
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 02-26-2006 4:19 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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