Human Programming

Yes, I typed that I came to the conclusion that it IS true, meaning that it is my opinion that it is true, or that I think that it is true, not that it is certainly true. The latter. My research was reading the New Testament.I think that my science education and atheism freed me from the biases of being raised christian and allowed me to view the Bible from a new perspective. Like Gasby said, a simple physics class will teach you that the Bible is not infallable. I think this 'fresh start' helped me find a faith that was stronger than the one had I received from being raised christian.

I most definitely did not say anything like that.You asked me why I believed in an afterlife, why I thought folk needed to be saved.I certainly do not think "Because Christianity is the only possible working religion".Earlier I said that religions are but the Maps, not the Territory. Maps will be more or less accurate. All of the maps will have places where they correspond very closely with the Territory, and other places where they are out of date, or just plain wrong.Christianity is no exception.I believe in an afterlife for personal comfort reasons. Such an afterlife may or may not exist, and no one living will ever know for sure.If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence She does exist.God's is totally out of our control and absolutely untestable, unknowable by any one, any religion, independent of any belief system.I happen to think that the lessons that Jesus and the Bible teach have validity here. They are testable, to see if the Map corresponds with the Territory.In the Garden of Eden (GOE) story we are told that we have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There is an implicit charge related to that, that we should try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong and, when we screw up, honestly acknowledge our failings and to try to do better in the future.Regardless of whether the story of the GOE is true or not, that is a useful lesson.Jesus taught us that there were two commandments. The first is to Love God.The second is a two parter, we are to love others as we love ourselves.Note in particular the second part. It amplifies the charge from the GOE. It says we need to first be honest about ourselves. Then, we need to honestly treat others as we would like to be treated, but only after really honestly evaluating our own lives and trying to get our own house in order.Return for a moment to the first part. How do we love God?Again, Jesus lays that out very clearly, particularly in Matthew 25:31-46. It is what we do, how we behave, and what we do for those around us.Notice in all of the Sheep and Goats passage, there is NOTHING about belief? It is all about what you do.Again, this is a place we can test the Map against reality. Does how we behave help or hurt those around us?I chose Christianity for several reasons. One is that I found the messages as laid out in this post useful. They outline a good way to live.Does that invalidate other Maps? No. They too will reflect the Territory but just like Christianity, must always be tested. Just because the Map may show a bridge does not mean the bridge is still there. Look, test, verify.The comfort reason I mentioned is related to many factors, Love (I hope to once again see my mother and father as well as friends, pets and new folk), curiosity (I still have many many questions and hopefully the answers I get will lead to even more exciting new ones).But I believe that hope for an afterlife is unrelated to Christianity or any other religion. I have spent many years studying Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Taoism, Confucius, Mencius, Buddhism, Wicca as well as many of the Native American religious beliefs, Norse, Greek, Egyptian (one favorite book growing up was the Book of the Dead) and regardless of where I ended up, I think that desire, that hope for an afterlife would be a key driving force for me.I am the proverbial Elephant Child, "full of 'satiable curtiosity".

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Does this belief make you agnostic?Agnostic AND thiestic, I guess that's possible, yeah?You really think that God is unkowable by any one(anyone)? Don't you think that God is capable of making herself known to someone?

to which Catholic Scientist replied: Not at all. I believe that there is a GOD, but I also acknowledge that that can never be more than a belief. Yes I believe GOD is unknowable by anyone. How exactly does one test that the source really is GOD and not something else?Would not any such test reduce GOD to something only natural?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So your theism trumps agnosticism? I mean, your belief fits the definition of an agnostic(that god is unknowable). Does being agnostic mean that you can't believe that god exists? Oh, you just mean that you can't know god in the same sense that can't really KNOW anything. Its really not that fantastic of a claim as I originally read it.But for argument's sake, an omnipotent (which I realize we haven't agreed upon) God would have the power to make you really KNOW something, by definition, even if you couldn't test it...shit, even if it wasn't true. Omnipotence is a prett lame concept, logically, though. But if you don't believe god is omnipotent...

Jar sorry about the misunderstanding I know you didnt say that.. I was just recalling a conversation I had with my friend..The similarity with what you said in a previous post was simply the comfort a belief gives you.

And just how would you be able to tell that what you "Know" really was the product of God's actions and not some other critter? The folk in Heaven's Gate "Knew" that the vessel was in Hale-Bop.As you say, any sufficiently powerful critter could make you "Know" something even if it is not true.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This really is a stupid argument to be having. You'd be able to tell because of god's omnipotence. She could just use her magic powers to make you know, in any sense of the word know, that's omnipotence for ya.Seriously though, can you be both anostic and theistic? That's what I really wanted to discus. I think you can and that we both are both. I don't think we can prove god, or certainly know god does or not exist (agnostic) but I believe he exists (thiestic).

I think that if we are to be honest, we must acknowledge that we might be wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I have to agree with CS that your statement of belief in this thread fits the definition of agnosticism more than it does anything else. You call yourself a Christian and I certainly won't argue with that, but it seems to me that your inclination seems to be to remove the spiritual and/or miraculous part of Chritianity, leaving only the moral aspects of the faith. Isn't this God making himself known? Doesn't this make him knowable?Where did your concept of right and wrong come from? If there is an implicit charge then who/what gave us that charge? I agree that God is not known through the scientific method but I would argue that the scientific method is far from the only way of learning truth.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Yet I believe that there is a GOD. Agnostics say they just have no idea. Atheists say there is no God. Well the story is there regardless of whether it is true or not. According to the story it is GOD that gives us that charge and that is what I believe.BUT...again, even if the story is simply a tale told around the campfire, the lesson is valid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree that we have been given the knowledge of good and evil by God, and that the rest of the OT and the message of Christ is about helping us make the right choice.I guess if we go back to the OP I would agree that we are programmed, but not in the way that Kader suggested. I contend that we are programmed by a creator, (without concern for how we are created), with a consciousness that is programmed to seek out the truth of our existence, both physically and spiritually.I am convinced of the truth of the Christian story, but that does not negate the truth that is to be found in other religions nor in science for that matter.If Kader found only hatred in his church, then his experience is very different than mine. In the churches I've belonged to I have found that there is far more love and concern for others than anything else. If he found a church with only hatred then he found a church that has perverted the message of Christ.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I believe the point Kadar is making is quite the opposite ... that people are programmed (or reprogrammed) by their parents not to seek out the truth. The evidence seems to support this view.

I think that it would be interesting to measure the number of people who have grown up in one religion and switched to another...without moving away from their original culture. The results would show us what the most popular religion is, based on a persons own choice apart from upbringing.

and I think that if we are to be honest, we must acknowledge that God could let us know she exists.I guess I'm not so agnostic afterall