The Great Debate

Message 92 of 102 (273100) 12-27-2005 1:36 AM

Reply to: Message 88 by Mr. Ex Nihilo 12-22-2005 3:41 PM

well, that's kind of the point of this whole debate, right?

[quote]Actually, this brings up the question: What do the Scriptures say that God cannot do?[/qs]

well, there's this:

quote:

---

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

---

but that's not hebrew.

i'm not really sure. it's more of an impression i get. perhaps ou can find something in specific?

well, you were saying that god's omniscience limits his freewill (and presumably his capacity to do or create evil). it stands to reason then that if god is not omniscient, he is not limited in this manner. because he doesn't know the outcome, he has a choice, and can make mistakes as well as evil.

your original position was that god did not know evil -- but i showed that to be incorrect. there are things that god clearly describes as evil, statements that god creates evil, commands and allows things we would call evil, and that tree of knowledge of good and evil that made adam "like god." i think a verse that said something to extent of "god does not know evil" would be overruled by the myriad evidence that he does.

do you have such a verse?

no no, i think you're missing what i mean to say. i'm not saying that creating man was "evil," only that god himself considered it a mistake. it might well have been good. we can do lots of good things that turn out to be mistakes. it's just evidence that god is fallible and can make choices that he himself considers "wrong."

i'm not gonna answer the rest of this. i hope you don't think it rude of me. i don't mean to be rude; i'd just end up cluttering up the conversation by repeating myself. i'm not entirely sure the specific limitation the hebrews thought god had in ability or knowledge, so i guess the ball's in your court for the time being.

Message 93 of 102 (273254) 12-27-2005 2:49 PM

Reply to: Message 92 by arachnophilia 12-27-2005 1:36 AM

Yes. It is.

If we're talking about the Christian Scriptures, then there's also this passage which speaks of it being impossible for God to lie

Similarly, in regards to Christ, the Scriptures say it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him:

And furthermore, as you already started to cover in James, the Christian Scriptures state that it is impossble for God to change, that he does does not change like shifting shadows:

The Christian Scriptures also state that God lives in unapproachable light:

The Christian Scriptures also state God is light; in him there is no darkness at all:

Consequently, this Christian thought reverberates very easilly in the Hebrew Scriptures with the following passage found in Daniel 2:22:

I'll note that the passage in Daniel does not say that "darkness" dwells with God -- rather, darkness seems to be something separate from God that God's light pierces and disperses (even transforming the darkness as the Genesis account displays).

You yourself admit that the Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis do not indicate that God created the "primal darkness" which "apparently" preceeded the Creation.

And, as I noted before in regards to God's light, the following Hebrew Scriptures make the following claims about God:

There were many other passages that I quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures -- all indicating that God's qualities are like light. The following passage in the Hebrew Scriptures goes even further and just outright states that God will be our everlasting light.

There are actually plenty of Hebrew passages which indicate that God is light, or very much like it -- plenty of passages which indicate that God is our very "source" of light. There is not, however, one passage found within the Hebrew Scriptures which indicates that God's "radiates" darkness.

Now let's take a strict look back at the Hebrew Scriptures alone and note what they say that God cannot do.

As we've both noted before, The Hebrew Scriptures make the following claims about God's ability:

In my opinion this passage of Hebrew Scriptures is saying that God cannot lie -- and that he cannot repent of what he has already fore-ordained (because if he says that he's going to do something and then turns around and does not do what he said he would do this would make him a liar). I believe that this view is what the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures intended when they wrote thoughts like this.

In your opinion, apparently, you feel that this passage is not actually saying that God cannot lie -- and you feel that it's also saying that he can actually repent of evil actions that he has apparently brought about. In opposition to my own view, you are apparently claiming that the Israelites believed that this passage in the Hebrew Scriptures indicated that God was simply above reproach if he actually decided to lie -- and you also feel that the Israelites believed that they had no right to judge God if indeed he did repent of evil.

There are also passages which seem to indicate that God cannot change (in addition to not lying).

And again:

While it is certainly possible that some Israelites did believe as you claim, I'm fairly well certain that the authors of the Scriptures did not view these passages in the way you claim the Israelites did. I'm also fairly sure that those who originally scribed these words also beleived that those who did understand the passages in the way I've noted above were more than likely understanding the passage in accordance with God's Spirit.

As an aside, one will also note that the passage in Numbers 23:19 seems to mesh very easilly with the following passage in Hebrew 6:18 which I already quoted above:

Clearly, according to the Scriptures -- whether Christian or Hebrew perceptions -- it seems very, very reasonable to conclude that the Israelites believed the God could not lie. In fact, if the Israelites actually did believe that God could lie, this would undermine the very promises that they believed in (which makes very little sense to me).

You had said before:

I think there are passages in the Hebrew Scriptures which ask people to trust God and hold him accountable to his words. Indeed, if God could lie and not be held accountable to anyone, then why would God ask the Israelites to trust in his promises -- and to even test his promises -- in order to validate his trustworthyness as follows?

In fact, if the Israelites believed that God could lie, then why would they write anything which indicated that they should trust in God's promises at all -- and there are too many examples of the Israelites writing "Trust in God" to quote here.

Since we're discussing the Hebrew Scriptures on their own merit, let's take a deeper look at what the Hebrew Scriptures say that God cannot do.

As noted before, according to Habakkuk 1:13 we read his eyes are eyes are too pure to look on evil; that he cannot tolerate wrong:

Consequently, this passage in Habakkuk 1:13, as I noted before, seems to reverberate very easilly with the passages I already quoted before from Job 34:10-12, where it is suggested:

Like Habakkuk above, these passages in Job seem to be strongly attempting to vindicate God's will into something holy and good no matter what happens to us. In this instance it appears as if the idea that God could pervert justice is simply unthinkable.

Consequently, Isaiah seems to be saying the same thing here in a round-a-bout way -- that God cannot tolerate evil:

And along similar lines, God himself states that he cannot bear the Israelites evil assemblies:

And again:

Clearly, if the Israelites themselves believed that God could not tolerate or look upon the face of evil -- that the wicked could not dwell with him -- then how can one argue that God himself was believed by the Israelites to even be a "little bit" evil?

Well talk about this more after, if that's ok?

Maybe -- maybe not. There's more to it than that.

Have you ever noticed how the Hebrew Scriptures depict God, God's light, or God's Spirit as "searching out" for people's innermost spirit -- effectively determining their good deeds from their bad deeds?

For example:

...or, again, here:

...or here...

...or here...

This brings up an interesting question:

Why would an omniscient god need to "search" for anything if he already knows everything?

Yes. And exactly how is evil created according to the Scriptures?

If, as I've noted before, evil is created where something is void of God's presence, then God is not actually directly making evil -- he's repenting of the good things, withdrawing his blessing in response to the evil that we do.

Or, again, if the Spirit of God is moving in a certain direction, the ultimate direction of the Spirit's motion is a good and holy one. Even if those who go against the direction of God's Spirit (using the wind analogy) are ultimately brought to ruin or outright destroyed, this is still not God's direct fault -- people destroy themselves when going against God's will.

Or, as expressed in the very same book that you've quoted to prove that the Israelites believed that God does evil:

Consequently, this passage fairly states what I've been saying all along.

If we resist the direction of the Spirit's motion, then evil will befall us. But God himself is not actually creating evil. We're fairly well creating evil ourselves -- but our actions will still work, whether good or evil, according to God's purpose. This is what I think the Scriptures mean when they say that God knows the end from the beginning: he knows ahead of time that good that will befall all who are moved by his Spirit (even if they have to go through a painful process before they get there).

Again, I think there's more to it.

What about the passages I quoted above -- the ones that said that God cannot tolerate evil? Would this be a limitation? What exactly do the Hebrew Scriptures mean when they say that God cannot tolerate evil? Does God have control over this intolerance?

Well...I've already stated exactly what I felt the Israelites believed that God cannot do -- and what I felt the Israelites believed that God didn't know.

For the sake of resolving a good debate, it seems to me that you should at least offer your own view on what you feel the Israelites believed that God didn't know or couldn't do -- especially since you seem to have agreed with me that you feel that the Israelites also believed that God was neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

If you feel that the Israelites also believed that God was neither omniscient nor omnipotent, then, for the sake of this debate, it would appear that you are somewhat obligated to fill in these details. To leave it blank at this point seems to be leaving the default position in favor of the Scriptural passages which do seem to indicate that God cannot tolerate nor look upon evil.

If the Hebrew Scriptures ask people to be like God, and God seeks those who are blameless before him, would this not indicate that God too is also considered blameless?

As such, no offense intented, but it seems to me that the ball is still somewhat in your court arach.

In regards to lack of omniscience, what do you feel the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that God does not know -- and why?

In regards to lack of omnipotence, what do you feel the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that God cannot do -- and why?

Note: I've editted this post many times to clarify certain points.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-31-2005 12:42 AM

Message 94 of 102 (274080) 12-30-2005 2:09 AM

For example, you've noted the Isaiah 45:7 passage below (and we've analyzed it in depth):

In your opinion it appears as if this passage should be read fairly literally. This, as I've since found out, doesn't mean that you think the Israelites thought evil was something tangible -- although I do admit that I was confused by your opinion at first. However, you did seem to indicate that evil happenings effectively somehow directly emanated from God -- and you apparently believe that the ancient Isrealites also believed this as well.

In my own opinion I think this passage should be read rather loosely. This, as I've pointed, doesn't mean that I take this to mean that evil is something tangible either -- although I do think that the Israelites did have a tradition for acknowleding evil happenings to spiritual forces. In my own opinion, however, I have indicated that evil happenings effectively are somehow indirectly caused by rebellion against God will -- and I believe that the ancient Istaelites believed this as well.

You also noted another passage from the Hebrew Scriptures to bolster your opinion. The passage came from Amos 3:6 and it reads as follows:

In this passage you again noted that God appeared to be "doing" evil and that there was basically no other way to read it except in a literal sense that God was the "source" of evil.

Like the Isaiah passage above, you were basically saying what other way do you propose we read this, two passages that plainly say that the Lord has created and done evil?

Actually, this was you exact phrase right back at the beginning of this discourse:

My suggestion is to look elsewhere in the Scriptures to see clear examples of what God is actually doing when he "supposedly" creates evil. In fact, there are entire sections of Scripture which go into great detail about the "mechanisms" of exactly how God does "create" evil.

As a cross reference I submit the following link for you to examine.

Ezekiel 16: An Allegory of Unfaithful Jerusalem

Read through this section and tell what you think.

I've got some interesting thoughts to share with you regarding these passages in Ezekiel. They've been strongly shaped by David Haggith's thoughts expressed in his book "End-Time Prophecies of the Bible". Although I don't agree with everything he says (and the little bit I do not agree with him is much less then the many things I do agree with him), I've found his research to be excellent and fairly ecumenical -- and very solidly Christian based.

He is a protestant as far as I can determine -- so I'm not quoting strictly catholic sources to bolster my own opinion when I quote him.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-30-2005 02:12 AM

Message 95 of 102 (274316) 12-31-2005 1:25 AM

Ok, I missed these before ... and I admit they're good counter points.

But let's take a look at what's going on here in these passages.

The other passage you quoted seems to be a retelling of the same event:

1 Chronicles 13:1-10 (New International Version)

One problem with these passages is the fact that both quite plainly state that Uzzah apparently did something terribly wrong before the Lord's wrath struck him dead -- he actually reached out and touched the Ark of the Covenant, which is a big no no.

What do you think of these passages when it's pointed about that Uzzah does the wrong thing -- but with good motives?

I have further thoughts on these passages, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on them before I proceed (or, if you're too busy to respond in full, just let me know and I'll proceed to share my own thoughts and you can comment on them appropriately).

Edit: Thinking about how Uzzah reached out to touch the Ark reminds me of an article I read in my NIV Syudy Bible. I found it interesting then -- and I find it very applicable now. The following quotation seems to me to be of direct relevence to the question of Uzzah's death -- and "how" God killed him.

The article called Living with Fire reads as follows:

And, I'll also note, it was deadly for Uzzah as noted above. In fact, it can once again be easilly said that someone, in this case Uzzah, died directly as a result of their apparent sin against God. In others words, once you read past the poetic language employed, it seems as though Uzzah basically killed himself as a result of going against God's Spirit.

As another article notes:

Consequently, the remainder of the "Living with Fire" article, applied to a more Christian perspective, goes as follows:

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-02-2006 01:57 AM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-03-2006 01:57 AM

Message 96 of 102 (274368) 12-31-2005 10:01 AM

And, in addition this, what do the Hebrew Scriptures indicate are the reasons why God has apparently done these things?

Let's look at each example given.

No doubt -- since we wouldn't be having this discourse if there weren't. But let's look at why these things are happening according to the Israelites in the Hebrew Scriptures.

And how does God create evil?

Yes, but unless the Scriptures declare them evil, it matters not whether we think they're evil or not. You quoted several different sources for things that "we" would call evil -- the great deluge and the Sodom and Gomora events for example. However, nowhere do the Scriptures themselves call these events evil. This would be an example of our "subjective" human perception calling something which God himself considers a good thing evil.

Now, if you're talking about God sending evil spirits to counfound people, then once again we have to look at the reasons given as to "why" God sent them.

For example, in Judges 9:22-24 we read of the event where God sends an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem.

Judges 9:22-24 (New International Version)

However, it is clearly noted that the citizens of Shechem acted treacherously against Abimelech. It also quite clearly states that God did this in order that the crime against Jerub-Baal's seventy sons (the shedding of their blood) might be avenged on their brother Abimelech and on the citizens of Shechem (who had helped him murder his brothers).

In other words, "God sending an evil spirit" appears to mean that the citizens of Shechem did something wrong (going against God's spirit) which inevitably brought disaster upon themselves.

Once again, God is seen as "in control", but his control seems to be his own stepping out of the way to allow evil to befall those who have done evil.

In other words, God did nothing. And the only thing that he specifically ensures is that whatever does happen as a result of their own evil actions will work according to his will -- not theirs.

Based on the "mechanics" of this passage of the Hebrew Scriptures, it would seem as if we could extrapolate this "mechanism" of the Spirit's motion to other passages which basically say that God "sent an evil spirit" and infer that, once again, God is not actually doing anything except letting the pieces fall where they may when evil arises.

For example, there are the following passages found in the Hebrew Scriptures...

1 Samuel 16 (New International Version)

Within this passage we see that the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

So once we see this same pattern -- the evil spirit "from God" showing up when the "Spirit of the Lord" departs -- which brings up an interesting question: why did the Spirit of the Lord depart from Saul in the first place?

It seem that Saul's own previous actions brought about the departure of God's Spirit, especially in the light of previous passages prior to the Spirit's departure where God specifically says about Saul, "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."

So, once again, we see man "sins" preceeding the departure of "God's Spirit" -- which is fairly well exactly what I've been stressing all along. In other words, once again, God "sending an evil spirit" appears to equal "man rebelling against God's Spirit" -- and God stepping back in response to allow evil to consume itself.

But let's take another look at some more passages of the Hebrew Scriptures where they specifically talk about God "sending a spirit" which has sinful and evil actions.

For example, there's also this passage which you noted before:

1 Kings 22 (New International Version)

Here we specifically read an account where God specifically says, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?"

Finally, apparently after much debate, one spirit rises to the challenge -- effectively answering, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets."

To this God clearly replies, "You will succeed in enticing him." God then gives the spirit permission to be a lying spirit, "Go and do it."

Now, when reading these Hebrew Scriptures solely on their own merit, one can reasonably conclude that God sends lying spirits, correct?

But what exactly does it mean when it says that God "sent a lying spirit" -- and what was already happening "amongst the people" before God allows this to happen?

The king of Israel apparently brought together the prophets -— about four hundred men -— and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"

They apparently answered, "Go, for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."

Now let me ask you a simple question: were these prophets telling the truth?

It seems to me apparently not -- especially since God later says through Micaiah, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.'"

And later on we read...

Of course, later on, we read...

Apparently the 400 prophets were lying while Micaiah was telling the truth after all. Furthermore, we specifically read from Miciah, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."

And why were the 400 prophets lying in the first place?

The prophets were most likely lying because they were telling the king the exactly the things that the king wanted to hear in the first place -- lies which had nothing to do with doing God's will in the positive sense. In other words, they were apparently "false prophets".

Passages in the Hebrew Scriptures such as these noted below cover these kinds of "false prophetic" lies in God's name in lengthy detail:

Ezekiel 13: False Prophets Condemned

Here's another...

Jeremiah 14:13-15

And here's another (for a bit of overkill)...

Jeremiah 23: The Righteous Branch

Furthermore, the Israelites seemed to be in a state of terrible rebellion against God's will anyway -- and this state of rebellion leading to them being thrown in chaos occured well before the "lying spirit" was sent by God.

For that matter, preceeding the period which lead up to this time of Samuel (and later Micaiah), the Israelite nation was in a state of depravity. According to both Judges 17:6 and Judges 21:25 we read, "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit."

Certainly the times we read where Samuel and Micaiah were actively prophesying seems to be a period of rebuilding Israel from the ashes of the former chaos that they were in during the period of the Judges -- so it's not hard to imagine that several people within the Israelite nation were still rebelling against God's will.

Even more so, since other passages of Scripture do indicate that God's Spirit leaves in accordance with people's sins, it does not seem unreasonable to conclude that this example of the "lying spirit" within I Kings 22 is simply yet another example of this very same "spiritual mechanism" affecting the "king of Israel" .

After all, the king of Israel we're talking about here is in fact none other than King Ahab -- the MOST EVIL of all the kings before him as I Kings 16:30 rather clearly states. Is there anyone else who typifies this rebellion against God's Spirit as well as Ahab does within his own time?

Archaeological note: Carved ivory plaques were found at the site of Ahab's palace in Samaria. Ahab was known to live in a ivory palace (1 Kings 22:39).

Yes, but as I mentioned before, the Hebrew Scriptures do not explicitly state that the tree of knowledge of good and evil made Adam "like God". It specifically says the that the tree of knowledge of good and evil made Adam like "the unique one among us" -- which might not be a reference to God at all but the adversary among them.

I will note that I've already discussed the symbolism of the serpent possibly being a Hebrew cultural reference to pagans amongst them. I'll also now add that the very word dragon we use today comes from the Greek word Drakoni, which means "the seeing one". I will also now note that the history of dragons in ancient mythology seems to be strongly linked with the idea of "terrible guardians" which lord over treasures, including "secret knowledge" amongst other things.

Here's an interesting link which gives a comprehensive list of links involving the history of dragons in ancient mythology around the world:

Dragons in legends and mythology

I would like to discuss this further when we have a chance -- but more on this later.

Getting back to the state of Adam and Eve prior to their participation with the infamous tree, since Adam and Eve were now being driven out from the garden so that they wouldn't reach out and partake in the tree of life, it seems to me that they definitely weren't left in a state similar to "godliness" -- especially since God himself could apparently "still" partake in the tree of life (there is no record of God not being able to do this -- in fact, it seems to me that the "tree of life" is actually a complex metaphor for God himself based on passages such Proverbs 11:30 which states, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise." -- certainly God would be considered to me the requirements of this: a righteous being who wins souls).

This brings back my other point: the final result of partaking in the tree of knowledge of good and evil does not actually appear to leave them in a state that the serpent originally claimed -- being like gods. Indeed, as far as I am able to determine, being like God means being holy and separated from evil. Adam and Eve are not left in this state however. In fact, they seem to be in the opposite state that God orignally "created" them in (ie., left feeling guilty and ashamed and separated from God instead of feeling innocent and unashamed and closer to God).

Regardless of how one words it, it appears as if the "sin" occurs before the "wrath of God" comes, that the Holy Spirit is rebelled against before the bad spirit enters in.

As I noted above, in other words, God did nothing.

Nothing.

And the only thing that he specifically ensures is that whatever does happen as a result of their own evil actions will work according to his will -- and not their sinful desires.

I personally liken "sin" to the analogy of a short circuit within an electrical system. When the appliance is properly grounded, the it can allow the eletrical surge to pass harmlessly though it and disipate into the ground. However, if the appliance is not properly grounded, it blows a circuit.

Technically speaking, although the Israelites certainly didn't have anything remotely related to electrical appliances, they certainly did have the concept of the "elect".

In this sense, using the electrical anology above, it appears that the elect were those who were grounded in God so that the temptations of sin could be dissapated harmlessly into the earth.

However, if the person were not "elected", this seems to indicate that the person was not actually grounded in God in the first place -- so the temptations of sin took a disasterous hold on the person and essentially blew a circuit within their spirit causing them to likewise dissipate into the earth with the flow of the temptation (ie., driven into the ground: aka., sheol)

We had mentioned before about an analogy of the one-way street, where some were going in the right direction (according to God's will), and some were going in the wrong direction (against God's will).

But a better anaology than the street analogy might be the electrical analogies or direct currents and alternating currents. Since this usage of "science" is OT I'll leave it up to you if you want to hear more on this. However, as far as searching for an exact analogy that acurately captures the effects of going with or against God's Spirit, I think this analogy works very, very well -- and is not far removed from how I believe the Israelites beleived God worked in creation and his "elect".

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-31-2005 12:44 PM

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-06-2006 11:33 PM

Message 97 of 102 (274575) 01-01-2006 3:53 AM

Reply to: Message 96 by Mr. Ex Nihilo 12-31-2005 10:01 AM

sorry about this, but i might take a while responding. my computer's powersupply has shorted out again. while i do have access to another computer here, it's not really mine. so i can't spend too long on it, besides the middle of the night. i'm not sure when i can get it fixed. it's time for a whole new computer, but i don't have the money.

i'm sorta considering using this as an excuse for a break from the board anyways. but i know i won't. i'll try to take a look at some of this in next week or so, but i can't really make any promises.

Message 98 of 102 (274636) 01-01-2006 11:51 AM

Reply to: Message 97 by arachnophilia 01-01-2006 3:53 AM

Hope all goes well with your search for a new computer. Have a happy new year.

Dale (Mr. Ex Nihilo)

Message 99 of 102 (275205) 01-03-2006 12:25 AM

Reply to: Message 94 by Mr. Ex Nihilo 12-30-2005 2:09 AM

The section of Haggith's reading starts as such...

Although this passage within Ezekial is most certainly an allegory, a "poetic story" that should not be taken literally, the "mechanism" of God's wrath is expressed very clearly within the lines of these poetic words.

1) Although expressed poetically, it is clear that since Jerusalem turned to the pagan gods of Babylon, Jerusalem essentially openned it's defenses thereby allowing Babylon to have its way with her. She would basically get the lover she seduced and would be raped by him as a result of her "adultery". She would, then, find that God, her former lover, was no longer there to protect her even as she would discover her illicit lover's true domineering spirit.

2) Even though expressed poetically, in reality one can still clearly see that the resulting punishment came about entirely by human wills carried out by human hands (Babylonian plans carried out by Babylonian hands). At the same time, God spoke as though he was the one bringing these things about because he chose to "allow" them to happen.

3) The destruction that eventualy came upon Jerusalem was not God's way of "evening the score". The only way the Jews of that time were going to understand the error of trusting in Babylon's religion was to experience how misplaced that trust was. Books of words had failed to turn them around, but "reality" communicates where words have failed.

Poetry or not, these lengthy passages within the Hebrew Scriptures seems to display a very clear and unequivocal pattern found all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures from beginning to end -- God's Spirit retreats in response to man's sins (and man causes his own demise by rebelling against God's Spirit).

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-03-2006 01:14 AM

Message 100 of 102 (483593) 09-23-2008 11:32 AM

Reply to: Message 92 by arachnophilia 12-27-2005 1:36 AM

once there was a proffesor talking to his students. he said "if anyone believes in God, stand up." one student stood up. "do you believe that God created everything?" asks the proffesor. "Yes" "Do you believe that there is evil?" "yes" "then do you believe that God created evil and is therefore part evil?" the student didn't know how to answer and sat down. then another student stood up. "sir" he said, "is there such thing as cold?" "of course," the proffesor replied. "no, cold is just a word made up by man for the absence of heat. it is not made; heat is just taken away. is there such a thing as darkness?" "of course" "no, darkness is just a word made up by man to represent the absence of light. is there such a thing as evil?" "of course" "no. evil is a word made up by man. it is the absence of Gods love and righeousness".

this shows where i stand on this point. evil is not a thing created. its just a result of us drawing away from God and becoming corrupt because we are human.

by the way, that second student was Albert Einstein.

Message 101 of 102 (483594) 09-23-2008 11:38 AM

Reply to: Message 100 by Zothar 09-23-2008 11:32 AM

Bullshit. That's an urban legend, debunked years ago:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

Message 102 of 102 (483731) 09-23-2008 11:12 PM

I'm don't know why it got promoted (to stop topic disruption elsewhere?) and why it ended up in the "Great Debate" forum.

Closing it down.

Adminnemooseus