Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
For the record, I'm still holding to the idea that the Israelites did not believe that God could intentionally do evil. I'll explain it more as we go along.
arachnophilia writes:
well, that's kind of the point of this whole debate, right?
Yes. It is.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Actually, this brings up the question: What do the Scriptures say that God cannot do?
arachnophilia writes:
well, there's this:
KJV writes:
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
but that's not hebrew.
If we're talking about the Christian Scriptures, then there's also this passage which speaks of it being
impossible for God to
lie
Hebrew 6:18 writes:
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is
impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
Similarly, in regards to Christ, the Scriptures say it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him:
Acts 2:24 writes:
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was
impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
And furthermore, as you already started to cover in James, the Christian Scriptures state that it is impossble for God to change, that he does does not change like shifting shadows:
NIV writes:
Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights,
who does not change like shifting shadows.
The Christian Scriptures also state that God lives in unapproachable light:
I Timothy 6:15b-16 writes:
-- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and
who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
The Christian Scriptures also state God is light; in him there is no darkness at all:
1 John 1:5 writes:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you:
God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Consequently, this Christian thought reverberates very easilly in the Hebrew Scriptures with the following passage found in Daniel 2:22:
NIV writes:
He reveals deep and hidden things;
he knows what lies in darkness,
and light dwells with him.
I'll note that the passage in Daniel does not say that "darkness" dwells with God -- rather, darkness seems to be something
separate from God that God's light pierces and disperses (even transforming the darkness as the Genesis account displays).
You yourself admit that the Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis do not indicate that God created the "primal darkness" which "apparently" preceeded the Creation.
And, as I noted before in regards to God's light, the following Hebrew Scriptures make the following claims about God:
Psalm 18:28 writes:
You, O LORD, keep my lamp burning; my God turns my darkness into light.
There were many other passages that I quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures -- all indicating that God's qualities are like light. The following passage in the Hebrew Scriptures goes even further and just outright states that God
will be our everlasting light.
Isaiah 60:19 writes:
The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
There are actually plenty of Hebrew passages which indicate that God is light, or very much like it -- plenty of passages which indicate that God is our very "source" of light. There is not, however, one passage found within the Hebrew Scriptures which indicates that God's "radiates" darkness.
Now let's take a strict look back at the Hebrew Scriptures alone and note what they say that God
cannot do.
As we've both noted before, The Hebrew Scriptures make the following claims about God's ability:
Numbers 23:19 writes:
God is not a man, that he should
lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind [note: repent]. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
In my opinion this passage of Hebrew Scriptures is saying that God cannot lie -- and that he cannot repent of what he has
already fore-ordained (because if he says that he's going to do something and then turns around and does not do what he said he would do this would make him a liar). I believe that this view is what the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures intended when they wrote thoughts like this.
In your opinion, apparently, you feel that this passage is not actually saying that God cannot lie -- and you feel that it's also saying that he can actually repent of evil actions that he has apparently brought about. In opposition to my own view, you are apparently claiming that the Israelites believed that this passage in the Hebrew Scriptures indicated that God was simply
above reproach if he actually decided to lie -- and you also feel that the Israelites believed that they had no right to judge God if indeed he did repent of evil.
There are also passages which seem to indicate that God
cannot change (in addition to not lying).
I Samuel 15:29 writes:
He who is the Glory of Israel
does not lie or
change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
And again:
Malachi 3:6 writes:
"I the LORD
do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
While it is certainly possible that some Israelites did believe as you claim, I'm fairly well certain that the authors of the Scriptures did not view these passages in the way you claim the Israelites did. I'm also fairly sure that those who originally scribed these words also beleived that those who did understand the passages in the way I've noted above were more than likely understanding the passage in accordance with God's Spirit.
As an aside, one will also note that the passage in Numbers 23:19 seems to mesh very easilly with the following passage in Hebrew 6:18 which I already quoted above:
Hebrew 6:18 writes:
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is
impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
Clearly, according to the Scriptures -- whether Christian or Hebrew perceptions -- it seems
very, very reasonable to conclude that the Israelites believed the God could not lie. In fact, if the Israelites actually did believe that God could lie, this would undermine the very promises that they believed in (which makes very little sense to me).
You had said before:
arachnophilia writes:
i think the second half of that view would be consistent with the bible, yes. where does god ask them to hold him accountable?
I think there are passages in the Hebrew Scriptures which ask people to trust God and hold him accountable to his words. Indeed, if God could lie and not be held accountable to anyone, then why would God ask the Israelites to trust in his promises -- and to even
test his promises -- in order to validate his trustworthyness as follows?
Malachi 3:10 writes:
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.
Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
In fact, if the Israelites believed that God could lie, then why would they write anything which indicated that they should trust in God's promises at all -- and there are too many examples of the Israelites writing "Trust in God" to quote here.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
So what are God's limitations accoridng to the Hebrew Scriptures?
arachnophilia writes:
i'm not really sure. it's more of an impression i get. perhaps ou can find something in specific?
Since we're discussing the Hebrew Scriptures on their own merit, let's take a deeper look at what the Hebrew Scriptures say that God cannot do.
As noted before, according to Habakkuk 1:13 we read his eyes are eyes are
too pure to
look on evil; that he
cannot tolerate wrong:
NIV writes:
Your eyes are
too pure to
look on evil;
you
cannot tolerate wrong.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
Consequently, this passage in Habakkuk 1:13, as I noted before, seems to reverberate very easilly with the passages I already quoted before from Job 34:10-12, where it is suggested:
Psalm 34:10-12 writes:
So listen to me, you men of understanding.
Far be it from God to do evil,
from the Almighty to do wrong.
He repays a man for what he has done;
he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.
It is
unthinkable that God would do wrong,
that the Almighty would pervert justice.
Like Habakkuk above, these passages in Job seem to be strongly attempting to vindicate God's will into something holy and good no matter what happens to us. In this instance it appears as if the idea that God could pervert justice is simply unthinkable.
Consequently, Isaiah seems to be saying the same thing here in a round-a-bout way -- that God
cannot tolerate evil:
NIV writes:
Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
And along similar lines, God himself states that he cannot bear the Israelites evil assemblies:
Isaiah 1:13 writes:
Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations”
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
And again:
Psalm 5:4 writes:
You are not a God who
takes pleasure in evil; with you the
wicked cannot dwell.
Clearly, if the Israelites themselves believed that God could not tolerate or look upon the face of evil -- that the wicked could not dwell with him -- then how can one argue that God himself was believed by the Israelites to even be a "little bit" evil?
arachnophilia writes:
so perhaps god DOES have a choice precisely because he is limited in some regards.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Could you explain this further?
arachnophilia writes:
well, you were saying that god's omniscience limits his freewill (and presumably his capacity to do or create evil). it stands to reason then that if god is not omniscient, he is not limited in this manner. because he doesn't know the outcome, he has a choice, and can make mistakes as well as evil.
Well talk about this more after, if that's ok?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
If God is not omniscient. then what does God not know according to the Scriptures?
arachnophilia writes:
your original position was that god did not know evil -- but i showed that to be incorrect.
Maybe -- maybe not. There's more to it than that.
Have you ever noticed how the Hebrew Scriptures depict God, God's light, or God's Spirit as "searching out" for people's innermost spirit -- effectively determining their good deeds from their bad deeds?
For example:
Proverbs 20:27 writes:
The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man ; it searches out his inmost being.
...or, again, here:
Psalm 7:9 writes:
O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.
...or here...
Psalm 139:1 writes:
O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
...or here...
Jeremiah 17:10 writes:
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."
This brings up an interesting question:
Why would an omniscient god need to "search" for anything if he already knows everything?
arachnophilia writes:
there are things that god clearly describes as evil, statements that god creates evil, commands and allows things we would call evil, and that tree of knowledge of good and evil that made adam "like god."
Yes. And exactly how is evil created according to the Scriptures?
If, as I've noted before, evil is created where something is void of God's presence, then God is not actually directly making evil -- he's repenting of the good things, withdrawing his blessing in response to the evil that we do.
Or, again, if the Spirit of God is moving in a certain direction, the ultimate direction of the Spirit's motion is a good and holy one. Even if those who go against the direction of God's Spirit (using the wind analogy) are ultimately brought to ruin or outright destroyed, this is still not God's direct fault -- people destroy themselves when going against God's will.
Or, as expressed in the very same book that you've quoted to prove that the Israelites believed that God does evil:
Isaiah 63:10 writes:
Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Consequently, this passage fairly states what I've been saying all along.
If we resist the direction of the Spirit's motion, then evil will befall us. But God himself is not actually creating evil. We're fairly well creating evil ourselves -- but our actions will still work, whether good or evil, according to God's purpose. This is what I think the Scriptures mean when they say that God knows the end from the beginning: he knows ahead of time that good that will befall all who are moved by his Spirit (even if they have to go through a painful process before they get there).
arachnophilia writes:
i think a verse that said something to extent of "god does not know evil" would be overruled by the myriad evidence that he does.
do you have such a verse?
Again, I think there's more to it.
What about the passages I quoted above -- the ones that said that God cannot tolerate evil? Would this be a limitation? What exactly do the Hebrew Scriptures mean when they say that God cannot tolerate evil? Does God have control over this intolerance?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
It is painfullly obvious that God can do something that God himself calls a mistake. You've already noted the great deluge comments within Genesis where God repents of his creation of humanity and allows the universe to go through a period of "re-creation".
But just because he has "repented" does not mean it's evil.
I have pointed out the previous Scriptural passage where it says God repents of the good. This seems to me to indicate that God holds back his Spirit to allow things to fall back into the quantum foam of the primordial chaos.
arachnophilia writes:
no no, i think you're missing what i mean to say. i'm not saying that creating man was "evil," only that god himself considered it a mistake. it might well have been good. we can do lots of good things that turn out to be mistakes. it's just evidence that god is fallible and can make choices that he himself considers "wrong."
i'm not gonna answer the rest of this. i hope you don't think it rude of me. i don't mean to be rude; i'd just end up cluttering up the conversation by repeating myself. i'm not entirely sure the specific limitation the hebrews thought god had in ability or knowledge, so i guess the ball's in your court for the time being.
Well...I've already stated exactly what I felt the Israelites believed that God cannot do -- and what I felt the Israelites believed that God didn't know.
For the sake of resolving a good debate, it seems to me that you should at least offer your own view on what you feel the Israelites believed that God didn't know or couldn't do -- especially since you seem to have
agreed with me that you feel that the Israelites
also believed that God was neither
omniscient nor
omnipotent.
If you feel that the Israelites also believed that God was neither
omniscient nor
omnipotent, then, for the sake of this debate, it would appear that you are somewhat obligated to fill in these details. To leave it blank at this point seems to be leaving the
default position in favor of the Scriptural passages which do seem to indicate that God cannot tolerate nor look upon evil.
If the Hebrew Scriptures ask people to be like God, and God seeks those who are blameless before him, would this not indicate that God too is also considered blameless?
As such, no offense intented, but it seems to me that the ball is
still somewhat in your court arach.
In regards to lack of omniscience, what do you feel the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that God does not know -- and why?
In regards to lack of omnipotence, what do you feel the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that God cannot do -- and why?
Note: I've editted this post many times to clarify certain points.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-31-2005 12:42 AM
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