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Author | Topic: Will The Real God Please Stand Up? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If I made up a story about you molesting children, would that be okay? If you explained that you didn't molest anybody but I persisted in spreading the falsehood, would that be okay?
keep in mind that this is a play---a made-up story. There are no lies in stories.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK strike my comment from the record. Continue with your cross-examinations.
Jesus had no photo ID. I recommend admitting him based on his own personal recognizance. You are free to dismiss him and call another wanna-be deity from among the pantheon in the gallery. Keep in mind, however, that we are looking for a Deity with no evidence. Shall we conclude absence and dismiss these proceedings, or will we keep looking?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What's the point of looking if you've already decided that there's nothing to see? Keep in mind, however, that we are looking for a Deity with no evidence.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh there are plenty of candidates. there is just no evidence that any of them are our Deity. I maintain that evidence is not the only standard to be applied.
Lacking much solid evidence, how should this committee proceed? We do have the opportunity to interview each candidate. The spaghetti monster is getting long stares from everyone since we have not yet broke for lunch. Sophia wisely proclaims that we should be allowed to go across the street to the hamburger stand. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why not? there is just no evidence that any of them are our Deity. It's lame enough to claim that your own preferred deity is hiding from us because "he wants us to have faith" - but it's extra-super-mega-lame to claim that every potential deity would have the same silly policy.
Phat writes:
Then explain your standard. I maintain that evidence is not the only standard to be applied.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm not convinced that my Deity is hiding from us. More likely, we are incapable of quantifying/defining Her.
Creativity seems to require intelligence rather than random processes. Case in point: Nobody has yet burped out Shakespeare. It takes intention to write creatively... Our only example is human behavior. Thus we are faced with anthropomorphizing God.
quote: This gives Lady Wisdom an opportunity. Call her up on the stand next. Edited by Phat, : added quoteChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The Construct writes: If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist. Corrolary:
So where does this leave Jesus?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: This gives Lady Wisdom an opportunity. Call her up on the stand next. Can't do that without far more information. You specified "Lady Wisdom" so that means a female but there are still far to many Gods of Wisdom including Brigid, Athena, Neith, Seshat, Saraswati, Pheobe... It does preclude any of the variations of the Judaic Gods.
Phat writes: So where does this leave Jesus? As a character believed to be a God by some sects. It leaves Jesus wherever individual humans place Jesus. AbE
Phat writes: Corrolary:GOD either exists or does not exist. Humans do not create such a GOD, by definition. IF GOD exists, GOD is likely not anthropomorphized. But there is another corollary from what you posted; that GOD if GOD exists is unlikely be to like anything imagined by man. Edited by jar, : see AbE
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination? But there is another corollary from what you posted; that GOD if GOD exists is unlikely be to like anything imagined by man.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination? Ask any realtor. Once one of THEM moves in property values go straight to hell. Last thing God needed was humans moving into the neighborhood. But seriously, there is a pattern here that is seen from Genesis 1 right on through almost all the stories and that is the God character in the story is simply a plot device. The God in Genesis 11 is just a character the author(s) created, a plot device. Like Genesis 2&3 Gen 11 is another Just So story; the tale of why everyone does not speak the same language.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination? Because we wrote that story.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
The Construct writes:
Corrolary:
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist. But you overlook the obvious. If some supernatural entity does happen to exist, it would be far beyond human ability to understand, let alone detect or be able to prove or to disprove. We cannot even detect the supernatural nor determine whether the supernatural even exists, so could we ever possibly know anything about supernatural entities except for what we dream up? Even if such an entity were to attempt to communicate with us (ie, Revelation), what it would have to say would be go so far over our heads as to be virtually unintelligible -- and in the case that it kept every extremely simple for our sakes, why then should we have the extreme arrogance to describe it and its wishes in such extreme detail, details which we actually just made up along the way. The gods do exist as our own creations, as symbols and metaphors standing for what we suspect or wish to exist. They provide us with language with which to think about and discuss questions and concerns and hopes that we have, many of them very deeply felt. We quite literally did create the gods along with all the stories about them and all the commentary and speculations about those stories. If such a supernatural entity does exist, then, no, it would not be anthropomorphic, in our own image. Yet we did create the gods, including YHWH, in our own image, so then your "GOD" has indeed been anthropomorphized -- even when gods take animal shapes (as in native American and African traditions) or no physical shape (as in Judaic tradition), those gods are still given human personalities, desires, and motives. That is necessary if the gods are to serve their purpose. An actual supernatural entity would be completely alien to our human minds, so we need to create an anthropomorphic representation to work with instead, something that we could understand and relate to -- to that end consider the ever-changing personality of YHWH throughout the Bible. The metaphor of "God the Father" is a typical example, as evidenced by the extended discussion you yourself have been involved with discussing the actions of fathers and what fathers and their children should owe each other. Everybody has their own idea of "GOD" which they have created themselves for themselves, even though mostly all of them believe that their own idea is the only right one -- for fun, read the part of "Catch-22" where Cadet Yossarian and Mrs. Scheisskopf, both atheists, get into an argument over God in whom Yossarian sees the God of Wrath whereas to her it's the God of Love. In reality, all that "GOD" could ever be is an extremely poor approximation of the real thing, should it actually exist. That is why one should never assume that he understands what God is, because, as Augustine of Hippo pointed out, that only means that he has failed. Instead, one needs to keep working at it, thinking about it, and asking the right questions. When I say that I do not believe in God, that means that I do not accept your and anybody else's version of "GOD", because I know that it cannot be right. Instead, respect my right to my own beliefs as I respect your right to your own beliefs. Though I will push back if you try to force your beliefs onto me, especially by force of law as the Religious Right continues to do.
So where does this leave Jesus? Obviously you are not talking about the historical Jesus, the actual man who may or may not have actually existed. Rather you are talking about the Jesus of Legend. That Legend was created by Man borrowing very heavily from a multitude of pagan mystery sources. It's the same process of god-creation that we have seen so many times before. Yet again, the Christ is a symbol which is useful (necessary for many) for seeking to understand and to deal with all kinds of questions and issues. And yet again, arrogantly thinking that you understand it all so you want to impose your misunderstanding on everybody else, by force if necessary, is a horrible abuse of that symbol. Instead, it should be used for your own growth and motivation for doing good. If it includes the need to have Jesus as a personal invisible friend, I have seen that taken to unfortunate extremes. But it can be done right, so if you really need that, then I hope you use it correctly and positively. {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The God in Genesis 11 is just a character the author(s) created, a plot device.Like Genesis 2&3 Gen 11 is another Just So story; the tale of why everyone does not speak the same language. The moment after I typed that this morning, I knew almost what your response was going to be. But it does not explain anything more than that anytime we talk about God or speculate on what he would say or what He would do all we are doing is writing our own plot...which is not exactly what I wanted to hear. I believe that God if God exists is much more than I can describe Him as.
dWise1 writes: Forgive my arrogance. I happen to believe that God is capable of communicating to us and through us at our level of understanding. If some supernatural entity does happen to exist, it would be far beyond human ability to understand, let alone detect or be able to prove or to disprove. We cannot even detect the supernatural nor determine whether the supernatural even exists, so could we ever possibly know anything about supernatural entities except for what we dream up? Even if such an entity were to attempt to communicate with us (ie, Revelation), what it would have to say would be go so far over our heads as to be virtually unintelligible -- and in the case that it kept every extremely simple for our sakes, why then should we have the extreme arrogance to describe it and its wishes in such extreme detail, details which we actually just made up along the way.. For the sake of this topic, however...allow me to attempt my own modern just so story, starring humanity and God. (A modern twist to Genesis 11) Perhaps thats what God wanted us to do all along---attempt to write our own plots. (My story will be ready later on, after i work) Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
But it does not explain anything more than that anytime we talk about God or speculate on what he would say or what He would do all we are doing is writing our own plot...which is not exactly what I wanted to hear. Yes, I know that that is not what you want to hear, but it is what it is. However, you are giving that short shrift because that wasn't all that I was talking about. Yes, we do make up our own gods and stories about them that serve our needs. However, there is also the analysis and interpretation of those stories in which you are not just simply making stuff up, but rather you are working with it, analyzing it, trying to make sense of it, trying to discover something newer, deeper, truer. Think of that as Gedankenexperimenten. That is the value of those stories; don't sell it short.
I believe that God if God exists is much more than I can describe Him as. Which is exactly what I was saying. The gods that we create are infinitely smaller than the real thing, should it actually exist. We need to create our gods precisely so that we would have something accessible, which an actual supreme supernatural entity would not be. And even our own creations can be beyond our comprehension.
Forgive my arrogance. I happen to believe that God is capable of communicating to us and through us at our level of understanding. So do many others. Isn't it amazing how you don't all get all the same messages with all the same details?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This idea that we make up God is obviously just a fiction atheists like to believe, it has nothing to do with the reality of how believers come to belief or live our beliefs. I didn't believe in God for most of my life, for the thirty or so years between age fifteen and age forty-five. I'd gone to church as a child and believed in a general way but without any real conviction or knowledge so I easily lost it when confronted with my supposedly more enlightened sophisticated friends in the big city high school I started attending at fifteen.
When I came to believe in my forties, entirely through reading books about religion, it was with the overwhelming sense of a Reality I couldn't possibly have imagined existing before. This sense of an objective real God came from reading dozens of books by believers. They didn't make Him up, I didn't make Him up. I'd spent thirty years assuming such a God didn't and couldn't exist because I had no idea why the people who believed believed. I couldn't dream up any reasons for Him to exist before I simply KNEW He exists. I wasn't looking for Him, but just as Christian theology says, it is very clear to me that He found me and not the other way around. He showed me that He is real, He did it all. God is always described by believers as objective reality so it takes a lot of denial of simple human experience to accuse believers of making Him up. Of course you'll just assume I made it all up in my own mind anyway no matter what I tell you about my own experience. So I just wanted to butt in to say that much and you can and will just carry on with your own false beliefs. Cheers. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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