|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 65/40 Hour: 1/5 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: God's judgement and Determinism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
*bump msg 63*
Adding this:
The Agnostic writes: The argument I'd like to make: A fair and just God cannot judge humans based on their behaviour, because all human behaviour is determined by causality, which is outside of our control. I'll elaborate on the question why this is so. I'd agree with you. So long as the premise you pose above (and elaborate upon further) is true. There is no way to demonstrate the premise true however. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Agnostic Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
So you're using scripture to back up your idea that God is unfair? Doesn't that strike you as just a tiny bit inconsistent? That's the whole point!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Arachide Junior Member (Idle past 5965 days) Posts: 22 Joined: |
iano writes: The Agnostic writes:
I'd agree with you. So long as the premise you pose above (and elaborate upon further) is true. There is no way to demonstrate the premise true however. The argument I'd like to make: A fair and just God cannot judge humans based on their behaviour, because all human behaviour is determined by causality, which is outside of our control. I'll elaborate on the question why this is so. Phew, that's what i've been trying to explain Ringo. Aside the issue IF we live in a deterministic system that would make sense indeed. Can you explain why you think there is no way to demonstrate (genetic) determinism? Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
If your whole point is to argue that scripture is inconsistent, you're wasting everybody's time. Nobody here is arguing that.
You're using one interpretation of scripture (bad guys go to hell) and mixing it with another interpretation of scripture (God is omniscient) to arrive at the conclusion that God is "unfair". Using scripture in that way is just silly. You can come up with any conclusion you want if you pick and choose your references. I was hoping this thread would be more than just schoolboys doing their Logic 101 exercises. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Agnostic Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
You're using one interpretation of scripture (bad guys go to hell) and mixing it with another interpretation of scripture (God is omniscient) to arrive at the conclusion that God is "unfair". It's not the omniscience, it's the determinism that makes Him unfair. That's kind of what the whole thread has been about until now. The conflict between moral judgement and determinism.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Arachide Junior Member (Idle past 5965 days) Posts: 22 Joined: |
These are the basics of a proposition. I can make it more complex if you want, but i doubt if that will work if you can't even agree the basics.
if "A" = true THEN "B" = false Where "A" is the theory of determinism and "B" is the biblical concept of being judged by god.
quote:What's wrong with using one interpretation of scripture? It can be used in a proposition to prove that interpretation either true or false. quote:If it's not logic you use to understand things, i'm highly interested in what else.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Arachide writes: What's wrong with using one interpretation of scripture? It can be used in a proposition to prove that interpretation either true or false. But that isn't what you're doing. "If 'A' = true THEN 'B' = false" is meaningless because you haven't demonstrated that 'A' = true or that 'A' and 'B' are mutually exclusive.
If it's not logic you use to understand things, i'm highly interested in what else. Logic has little value if it isn't applied to reality. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Agnostic Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
I think we clearly demonstrated the fact that we don't control our actions, because we are subject to determinism.
Also, the fact that sending people to hell for something they cannot control is immoral. Though, immorality is hard to prove scientifically, I think we can just assume that to be a fact of common knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Arachide Junior Member (Idle past 5965 days) Posts: 22 Joined: |
quote:That's called an assumption. quote: I think it is demonstrated, but well...let's call that a difference of opinion or a difference of interpretation. I think comes down on the last one.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
The Agnostic writes: Though, immorality is hard to prove scientifically, I think we can just assume that to be a fact of common knowledge. Nope. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
iano writes: I'd agree with you. So long as the premise you pose above (and elaborate upon further) is true. There is no way to demonstrate the premise true however.
Arachide writes: Phew, that's what i've been trying to explain Ringo. Aside the issue IF we live in a deterministic system that would make sense indeed. How deterministic is deterministic? Is what you say in reply to this determined. Word for word? Or your not replying at all?
quote: In the sense of absolving you of responsibility for your choices before God? Simple really, no one can hold their breath that long. Those who are philosophically bent on furrowing that path will, per definition, end up mumbling something about ever more gaps being closed. True is not arrival at "we're closing more and more gaps every day". Gaps-yet-to-be-closed is a case of agonisingly close...but no cigar. Which would align nicely with the concept of The (biblical)God Delusion. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
rstrats Member (Idle past 131 days) Posts: 138 Joined: |
The Agnostic,
How do you define “free will” as you are using the term in this topic? BTW, is there any particular reason for adding an “s” at the end of “Revelation” in your posts #1 and #88?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Agnostic Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
Free will, in my opinion, is when your actions are not a result of any physical cause and effect chains, but of your own decisions.
However, since all our decisions are made in the brain, and the brain is a physical entity much like any other, our will cannot truly by free. A free will would require a non-physical consciousness that is not bound by the laws of physics. However, no evidence of such a non-physical consciousness exists. You can even falsify it by drinking a glass of alcohol. The chemical composition of the alcohol will influence your brain function and as a result, your thoughts and behaviour change. Clearly, the physical world determines consciousness, not the other way around. Brain damage will have a similar effect. If I mispelled Revelation by adding an s, that's probably because the Dutch version of the Bible has that word in plural form (Openbaringen).
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
The Agnostic writes: Free will, in my opinion, is when your actions are not a result of any physical cause and effect chains, but of your own decisions. That's not your opinion. That was determined. There is no "you" as such. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Agnostic Member (Idle past 5961 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: |
I'm guessing that's a mock reply, although I agree that the opinion voiced in the above post was formed by deterministic processes.
Edited by The Agnostic, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024