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Author Topic:   GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS
Cold Foreign Object 
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Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 337 (112930)
06-05-2004 5:49 PM


Probably the most cited alleged failed Bible prophecy is the promise of Genesis 22:17 and 26:4
Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Genesis 26:4
And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed
In these passages, God is speaking to Abraham, and He promises that Abraham's descendants will numerically become so vast as to only be compared to the stars of heaven/sand on the seashore.
Everywhere I go on the Net I run into some site that says these promises/prophecies failed because the Jews are anything but a people populated as such.
This is absolutely true. The Jews are a tiny worldwide minority. Is the Bible and its God a failure to keep His promise to Abraham ?
What is a Jew ?
ALL JEWS ARE HEBREWS BUT NOT ALL HEBREWS ARE JEWS
The word "Jews" does not appear in the Bible until 2Kings 16:6 and 2Chronicles 32:18.(KJV)
The word is used to describe persons that make up and populate the Southern kingdom of Judah which consisted of two tribes from Israel - Judah and Benjamin. Hence, Judah/Jews.
1Kings 11:29-35
29Now it happened at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite met him on the way; and he had clothed himself with a new garment, and the two were alone in the field. 30Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32(but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), 33because they have[1] forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. 34However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes. 35But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand and give it to you--ten tribes.
God, in these verses DIVIDES Israel into TWO distinct kingdoms.
God gives Jeroboam the right to rule 10 tribes and Rehoboam (Solomon's son) gets his kingdom reduced to 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin).
Now from this point on in scripture there are TWO Hebrew nations/kingdoms. The Northern kingdom (capitol of Samaria) is called House of Israel and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Kings. The Southern kingdom (capitol of Jerusalem) is called Judah and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Chronicles. ONLY after this split are the people of Judah called "Jews".
Now in Genesis 48 Jacob is going to distribute the birthright. This means the promises given to Abraham by God will flow through whomever Jacob blesses.
The law of primogeniture says the firstborn gets the birthright UNLESS God changes it.
Genesis 49:3,4
3"Reuben, you are my firstborn,
My might and the beginning of my strength,
The excellency of dignity and the excellency of power.
4Unstable as water, you shall not excel,
Because you went up to your father's bed;
Then you defiled it--
He went up to my couch.
Jacob's firstborn; Reuben committed a sexual sin and God stripped him of the birthright. This means the birthright now goes to whoever God (through Jacob) says it will go.
Genesis 48:8-22
8Then Israel saw Joseph's sons, and said, "Who are these?"
9Joseph said to his father, "They are my sons, whom God has given me in this place."
And he said, "Please bring them to me, and I will bless them." 10Now the eyes of Israel were dim with age, so that he could not see. Then Joseph brought them near him, and he kissed them and embraced them. 11And Israel said to Joseph, "I had not thought to see your face; but in fact, God has also shown me your offspring!"
12So Joseph brought them from beside his knees, and he bowed down with his face to the earth. 13And Joseph took them both, Ephraim with his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh with his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near him. 14Then Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh's head, guiding his hands knowingly, for Manasseh was the firstborn. 15And he blessed Joseph, and said:
"God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has fed me all my life long to this day,
16The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil,
Bless the lads;
Let my name be named upon them,
And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the
earth."
17Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18And Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head."
19But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."
20So he blessed them that day, saying, "By you Israel will bless, saying, "May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!"' And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21Then Israel said to Joseph, "Behold, I am dying, but God will be with you and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow."
The birthright has now been given to the TWO sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh.
BUT in Genesis 49:10 God removes TWO specific components of the birthright and gives it to Judah.
Genesis 49:10
The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
Judah receives the right to rule (scepter) and the right to make the laws (lawgiver), EVERYTHING else went to the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh, which includes ALL the promises given to Abraham.
GENESIS CHAPTER 38
Why is this chapter in the Bible ?
Its a lurid tale of reality. (this chapter is excellent proof that God controlled the content of scripture, if man did this story would of never made it in) The point of this chapter is to identify to whom Judah's birthright would flow through. Twins are born and the red string around Zerah's hand makes him the firstborn even though he came out second. But Pharez actually comes out first. What this means is that BOTH of them are firstborn and the promises of the right to rule and make the laws will flow through both of them. This is the eternal word of God and the point of this chapter is to establish the facts of the birthright to both of Judah's sons.
RECAP
All the promises given to Abraham - Jacob gave to Ephraim and Manasseh EXCEPT the right to rule/make the laws was given to Judah and his two sons Zerah and Pharez.
Judah and his descendants, the Southern kingdom of Judah - the Jews were never given or promised to be "as the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea". This massive population group was promised to Ephraim and Manasseh who were part of the Northern kingdom - the House of Israel.
In 1kings 11 the kingdom was divided into two nations. When God got fed up with the Northern kingdoms idol worship he allowed Assyria to carry them away into servitude never to return to Palestine. Israel was divorced by God and eventually dispersed across Europe, Scandinavia, and Britain. God did not divorce Judah for her sins but allowed and enabled them to return from exile. Those who returned rebuilt the wall and the Temple (Ezra/Nehemiah era) and those Jews eventually became the sect of the Pharisees (children of Pharez) in Jesus day.
HOSEA CHAPTER 1
Hosea prophesied to the House of Israel/Northern kingdom.
2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea:
"Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry
And children of harlotry,
For the land has committed great harlotry
By departing from the LORD."
God is going to use Hosea by making him marry a whore in order to depict His pain to see Israel commit idol worship. Then Hosea's wife is going to bare three children whose names God will choose to proclaim a prophetic message.
6And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him:
"Call her name Lo-Ruhamah,[1]
For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel,
But I will utterly take them away.[2]
7Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
Will save them by the LORD their God
The name "Lo-Ruhamah" means "not having mercy" on the House of Israel.
8Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9Then God said:
"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
The next child is named "Lo-Ammi" and it means "not my people" (Israel) God is divorcing and disowning Israel.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
"You are not My people,'[4]
There it shall be said to them,
"You are sons of the living God.'
What this means is that in the place that Israel is scattered and dispersed to, they will be forsaken and not look like God's people, they will be in a state of not having mercy THEN in this state they will suddenly become "sons of the living God" AND they will be as numerous as the "sand of the sea which cannot be numbered".
This prophecy clearly identifies Israel and NOT Judah/Jews to be the recipient of Abraham's promises.
When Israel broke free of Assyrian captivity they fanned out across Europe and landed in Britain eventually. They are not Jews, but Hebrews who have lost their Palestinian Hebrew identity, yet they certainly retained many of their ancestral customs and ways. Yet in this state of being "lost" and "not having mercy" they became known as sons of the living God: Christians.
Jesus said to take the gospel FIRST to the House of Israel.
Matthew 10:6
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The apostles did just that. The gospel went first to these forsaken/not having mercy/dispersed 10 tribes. Then in this state of being forsaken and not having mercy they became "sons of the living God"/christians. (Hosea 1) God divorced Israel UNTIL He sent His Son to fulfill the law and kill (crucify) the law. Mosaic law said a man cannot marry another until the first wife died. That "first wife" died on the cross (Law Incarnate) in order for God now to be able to seek out lost Israel and have her restored to Him via the power of the Gospel!
God kept His word to Abraham.
The point is that if God will keep His word to the likes of sinning Abraham, then how much more will He keep His word to us based on the blood of His Son.
[all scripture quotations from the NewKJV]
[source of theology/history Dr. Gene Scott]
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-07-2004 08:52 PM

Replies to this message:
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2384 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 337 (113405)
06-07-2004 9:35 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 3 of 337 (130406)
08-04-2004 4:45 PM


Unchallenged
One of the few rare topics that has gone unchallenged.
Testimony to the scholarship of Dr. Scott.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Prince Lucianus, posted 08-04-2004 4:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 11 by Amlodhi, posted 08-04-2004 8:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 337 (130410)
08-04-2004 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object
08-04-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Unchallenged
Either:
People didn't care.
or:
People thought you rightly adressed the problem.
So, there you have it.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 337 (130417)
08-04-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Prince Lucianus
08-04-2004 4:50 PM


Re: Unchallenged
Either:
People didn't care.
or:
People thought you rightly adressed the problem.
So, there you have it.
No shit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Prince Lucianus, posted 08-04-2004 4:50 PM Prince Lucianus has replied

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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 337 (130433)
08-04-2004 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
08-04-2004 5:09 PM


Re: Unchallenged
I think shit was not part of the problem
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 337 (130438)
08-04-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
06-05-2004 5:49 PM


Willowtree,
Could you provide me with a few answers:
1. Are Asians and Indians (East India) sons of Abraham?
2. Are Africans sons of Abraham?
Also, although the word "Jew" was not used until later, the actual authors of the Bible thought of themselves and the direct descendents of Abraham and thought of themselves as the people of prophecy. Would you say this is accurate?

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 337 (130439)
08-04-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Loudmouth
08-04-2004 6:28 PM


Hi Loudmouth:
1. Are Asians and Indians (East India) sons of Abraham?
As a "sand of the sea/stars of the heaven" population scale: No.
Are the asiatic peoples and peoples of India a massive population: Absolutely yes.
2. Are Africans sons of Abraham?
Some/few.
There are ONLY so many massive population groups: Asiatic, Slavic, Chinese, African, and of course Celtic.
Which of these are most likely to consist of birthright descendants ?
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 05:51 PM

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 337 (130440)
08-04-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
08-04-2004 6:49 PM


Asiatic first, African second.
and since when are Celts a major population group. ROTHFLMAO

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 337 (130444)
08-04-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Loudmouth
08-04-2004 6:28 PM


Also, although the word "Jew" was not used until later, the actual authors of the Bible thought of themselves and the direct descendents of Abraham and thought of themselves as the people of prophecy. Would you say this is accurate?
Missed this originally.
You would have to be more specific.
Generalizing like this leads to error.

This message is a reply to:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 337 (130487)
08-04-2004 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object
08-04-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Unchallenged
quote:
Originally posted by WILLOWTREE
Testimony to the scholarship of Dr. Scott.
You need to get out more. Dr. Scott didn't invent this. This silly notion has been around since the 1600's and has been further perpetrated by the likes of:
Howard Rand & his "Christian Identity" (1889-1991)
Wesley Swift (1913-1970)
Richard Butler (1918-present)
Herbert W. Armstrong, minister ordained in 1934 > whose following eventually led to the formation of "The World Wide Church of God".
Ted R. Weiland
And Edward Hine, who incorporated your pyramidism into this British-Israelism notion.
As it is, however, the population groups in the British Isles do not carry the genetic markers that would be present in any descendants of the Israelites.
quote:
In Western Europe, including the United Kingdom, ABO gene frequencies have a distribution of A 25%, B 6%, O 68%. In the British Isles there are clearly established gradations of increasing O and decreasing A gene frequencies from south-east to north-west, and higher B gene frequencies tend to occur in the Celtic parts of Britain.
The Israelites closest living relatives would be the Jews. If the British are Israelites, then the British should have similar blood and genetic markers to the Jews. Yet, the Jewish people of the Middle East have markedly different blood group frequencies than are found in Britain.
{Ebling, F.J. Racial Variation in Man; Institute of Biology Symposium, #22, 1975. Pg. 20 with Cavali-Sforza (population genetics) from David M. Williams, British Israelism - an expose'}
British-Israelism is based on nothing more compelling than such things as Herbert Armstrong's silly notion that the word "Saxon" was derived from "Isaac's sons". Apparently, it escaped Mr. Armstrong's attention that "Isaac" is merely the later Latinized version of the Hebrew "Yitschaq". Or, perhaps he simply felt that "bene Yitschaq" would be just too difficult to mangle into "Saxon".
Another stunning connection made by the British-Israelism proponents is that the names Danube, Denmark, Danzig, and etc., obviously must have been places that the tribe of Dan passed through on their way to the British Isles.
So, WILLOWTREE, given your infatuation with Dr. Scott, perhaps it is best for you that he didn't dream up this drivel.
It is to weep,
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 08-04-2004 08:06 PM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3129 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 337 (130488)
08-04-2004 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Amlodhi
08-04-2004 8:58 PM


Re: Unchallenged
Your sudden departure from civility without provocation can only be attributed to the truth the OP and your "refutation" of racism slander.
You are ranting and defeated.
Whats wrong with you ?

This message is a reply to:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 337 (130497)
08-04-2004 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
08-04-2004 9:03 PM


Re: Unchallenged
WILLOWTREE,
I called this notion "silly drivel", which it is. I hardly think that qualifies as flying off the handle. And I have no idea what, "your 'refutation' of racism slander", is supposed to mean.
Did you have anything of substance that you wished to address? Or are you just looking for an excuse.
Amlodhi

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6954 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 14 of 337 (130523)
08-04-2004 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
06-05-2004 5:49 PM


The Israelite
is the inheritor. He is a Jew who is one inwardly (Romans 2:28,29), meaning anyone who believes the Christ is the Son of God, is such a person, an Israelite. Christ said in John 10:16, that he has sheep in all kinds of flocks. They add up.
The city, New Jerusalem, mentioned in Revelation, will be filled up.

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 337 (130704)
08-05-2004 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
06-05-2004 5:49 PM


Willowtree,
Thanks for your other reply. Just a few more questions.
quote:
Israel was divorced by God and eventually dispersed across Europe, Scandinavia, and Britain.
What evidence is there of this scattering? For the prophesy to be fulfilled we need extra-biblical confirmation that the peoples did spread through Europe. As noted by another poster, the genetic markers just aren't there, so it would seem that the lineage died out before being coopted into the European area.
Next, we have this passage:
"Call her name Lo-Ruhamah,[1]
For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel,
But I will utterly take them away.[2]
7Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
Will save them by the LORD their God
How does God 'take them away'? It would seem to me that these tribes are now no more, gone from the earth.
My challenge is to produce evidence that these tribes DID in fact mix with other Europeans. This would seem to be a logical step. I would accept extra-biblical conformation of these Hebrew tribes moving in on European cultures. Such a migration and influx of a new culture should have been recorded by scribes at the time. Also, you would think that these tribes would have also kept some of their cultural identity and passed this along ancestral lines. IOW, we should have literature written by these exiled tribes outside of the Torah and Old Testament.

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