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Author | Topic: Questions of Reliability and/or Authorship | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Sadly, we see no such distinction....and thus question whether "saved" people had a leg up on the ones who do not experience god so vividly and personally. Are you saying that you have the statistics all done for us?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jaywill writes:
Not by any means! This is merely my personal observations based on the many people I have encountered, as well as anecdotal stories. Perhaps you have some anecdotal stories which refute my findings. Think of the people you know. Do you have a group of friends who are not religious? (aside from us ) If so, do you see any major differences in morality, empathy, intelligence, or other traits that you care to discuss? Are you saying that you have the statistics all done for us? Remember, my basic assertion is that people with the Holy Spirit, although occasionally quite noble and lofty in word and action, by and large do not seem to me to have anything better than what some of my noblest, emphatic, and honest secular friends exhibit. Feel free to share your observations and refute my observation. I would enjoy your input.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 111 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Phat writes
Remember, my basic assertion is that people with the Holy Spirit, although occasionally quite noble and lofty in word and action, by and large do not seem to me to have anything better than what some of my noblest, emphatic, and honest secular friends exhibit. Since Jaywill has not responded but I am sure he will, let me ask you this question in reference to the above statement. What is it that you expect "Spirit filled" people to do or not do? Since your implication indirectly is that they should act somehow differently than the average person, what exacally is it that you require? Should they walk on water, dance a jig, exacally what is it you are expecting to see. Since you make this assertion, Ill let you provide the answer. From a Biblical perspective, to be filled with the Spirit is to live by the Spirits teaching in the Word. "The words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit and they are life". John 6:63 "If you love me keep my commnadments" "Be not drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit "Let the words of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom" "Quinch not the Spirit", etc, etc "The natural man recieves not the things of the Spirit,they are Spiritually undecernable" In this verse you have both the teaching of God and the interplay of mans freewill ("undecernable"). Mans mind has to be attuned to the things of God, before God grants him the "wisdom" to understand, "the unsearchable riches in Christ Jesus". "If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally and upbraids not". To ask is to want to acknowledge and obey him. Any person can have cold hard facts, but wisdom to understand them comes form God. "By this shall all men know that you are my deciples if you love one another" "Blessed assurance Jesus is mine, oh what a foretaste of Glory divine. Err of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit washed in his blood" This is one of the things we have that you cannot see presently Since you did not make it clear what it is you are hoping to see, I will offer this at present as an answer to your question. Being a child of God makes or puts you in a better position here and finally in eternity, it does not circumvent my free will to disobey him or make me a better person than you or other wordly persons from a human perspective. I am certainly better off, but I am not better than you as a person. See the difference, atleast from a Biblical perspective? D Bertot Edited by Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 865 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Bertot writes: This is one of the things we have that you cannot see presently I'm saved you're not: nyah, nyah, nyah. It's called cheap grace. To even assume some Biblical justification to criticize a person as insufficiently Christian who does what Jesus commanded, namely in just one matter, which is to counsel those in prison as so few so-called Christians can seem 'lower' themselves to do, is beyond the pale. I think one could learn a lot more from Phat about Christianity than anyone possibly can from your own self-righteousness. Do you actually think that you will impress God with a bunch of quotes you don't even seem to clearly understand? I'm sorry, that is all I see. Anyone can quote this or that Bible, the real question is can one live the essential teachings common to all Bibles. Edited by anglagard, : bad punctuation Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 111 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
SGM writes:
I'm saved you're not: nyah, nyah, nyah. It's called cheap grace. Well, I thought we might keep this on an adult level, but apperanently we cant. Do you you even understand the difference between assertion and demonstrating a point forcibly. So many unsupported assertions like the one above. In the first place "swirly galaxy man", I never made the statement, "I am the way , the truth and the life, No man comes to the father, but by Me". Your lousy assertions about cheap grace, are nothing more than an ignorant person trying his best to sound intelligent.
To even assume some Biblical justification to criticize a person as insufficiently Christian who does what Jesus commanded, namely in just one matter, which is to counsel those in prison as so few so-called Christians can seem 'lower' themselves to do, is beyond the pale. I dont have the slightest clue what this smattering ("superficial knowledge)of rambling nonsense means, or how how it applies to anything, maybe you could put it into perspective.
I think one could learn a lot more from Phat about Christianity than anyone possibly can from your own self-righteousness. Notice how your sentence starts, "I think", but its me that is self-righteous, Hmmmm? You problem is with God and Christ my simple little friend. What do you you guys do in the evenings go to "vaugeness and assertion" classes.
Do you actually think that you will impress God with a bunch of quotes you don't even seem to clearly understand? I'm sorry, that is all I see. Anyone can quote this or that Bible, the real question is can one live the essential teachings common to all Bibles. Well Ive been studying these "simple verses" some thirty five years now and I thought I had a general understanding of what thier very simple implication or understanding was, but apparently I dont. so if you could enlighten me through your vast wisdom, (possibly Gnostic in nature) without simply "asserting" that I dont understand them, maybe this will help me. lets see if you can make more than baseless assertions. What is the essential teachings common to all Bibles and how did you decide what they should be? Did you get this from God through inspiration or are you using your own "self-righteouness" to decide? Again, since you did not want to answer or choose to avoid the question that Phat asked, I will ask it again. What is it that you expect "Spirit filled" people to do? Self-righteouss Bertot signing off for now. D Bertot Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
D Bertot writes: This is one of the things we have that you cannot see presently... First of all, who is the "we" that you refer to?
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 111 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
First of all, who is the "we" that you refer to? First off let me say that is a "Fat"question and in todays lingo that means its good, atleast according to the kids. But to show you how much I know about that, that term has probably been out of use for several years now and I am not without aware of it. I suppose I should be greatful that you asked a civil question, without a great deal of sarcasm and ridicule, but i suppose that will follow later. Also, except for that little round head with the heat coming off he top. The "we" are the same ones that Christ spoke of in John 17 when he said, "I do not pray that you take "them" out of the world but that you keep "them" form the world". "I am the shepherd and my sheep hear my voice and follow me". To hear is to obey willingly "Go ye therefore and make deciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "Except ye believe in me, you will die in your sins" "No man comes to the father but by me" "If any man is in Christ he is a new creature, behold old things are passed away and all things are become new" "Therefore we are buried with him in baptism, that like as Christ rose from the dead we also rise to walk in the newness of life. The "we" then would be ANYONE who CHOOSES to obey Christs commands regarding entrance into his kingdom and follws (from the heart) his principles for life and spirituality One plays a dangerous game when they start to pick and choose what "words of Christ" they want or what suits thier fancy. Heres an idea, instead of continuing to ask vauge general questions, why dont you state in no uncertain terms YOUR positions and beliefs about these matters, then we can quit the cat and mouse routine. D Bertot Edited by Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Not by any means! This is merely my personal observations based on the many people I have encountered, as well as anecdotal stories. Perhaps you have some anecdotal stories which refute my findings. Think of the people you know. Do you have a group of friends who are not religious? (aside from us ) If so, do you see any major differences in morality, empathy, intelligence, or other traits that you care to discuss?
Well, I will tell you, Jesus said that the way to life is narrow and strait but the way to destruction is broad. So first of all I would expect fewer people on the straight and narrow and more people on the broad and easy. This would be according to what Christ taught. "Destruction" there does not necessarily mean damnation. The soul can be destroyed by the sin nature. So I expect that the way to divine life would be narrow and few would be on it but the way to the soul damage of sin would be broad and many people would be on it. Now, most of the Christians that I regularly meet with from different cities, and from different countries seek to live the highest standard of morality of any people on earth. We are seeking that through Christ. And there are different levels of maturrity. But we are growing and feel one day we will cause the Lord to come back to claim a Bride and wrap up this age.
Remember, my basic assertion is that people with the Hol y Spirit, although occasionally quite noble and lofty in word and action, by and large do not seem to me to have anything better than what some of my noblest, emphatic, and honest secular friends exhibit. Tell me where you live and I'll recommend some congregation for you to meet some serious Christians. That is if I know some in your area. Go meet them, mingle with them a bit. Then come back and give me your impressions. The brothers and sisters I meet with for the most part are very serious about living unto Jesus.
Feel free to share your observations and refute my observation. I would enjoy your input. Well, I'll tell you. Some of us love Jesus and want to follow Him even if EVERYBODY else wants to live on as a typical unbeliever. He said "Follow Me." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jaywill writes: Tell me where you live and I'll recommend some congregation for you to meet some serious Christians. That is if I know some in your area. I live in Denver and attend Denver First Church Of The Nazarenewhich seems to have a good group of folks. Any other ideas?
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I know some of the believers who meet here:
Welcome to the Church in Denver — Our Savior God desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth And I would recommend that some Sunday you break bread with them and talk to a few of the older ones.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 865 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Jaywill is clearly a member of this group, the Living Stream Ministry.
Now everything is becoming a lot clearer to me concerning this thread. The paranoia comes from evangelical criticism of this group as a cult, to which this denomination/cult has unsuccessfully sued in response, much like Scientology resorts to litigation to eliminate negative publicity. This 'cult' has gurus, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, through which all interpretation of the Bible must be vetted, similar to having the additional 'prophets' of Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Mary Baker Eddy, or even Mohamed in other cults/denominations/religions. I think you need to consider the combination of paranoia and secrecy evident in such members posts, such as jaywill's, before embracing this clearly non-mainstream interpretation of any Bible. Paranoia and secrecy are very cult-type behaviors. In fact they have even rewritten whatever Bibles that currently exist into their own "Recovery Version Bible." Now it seems not so strange that jaywill refused to answer my question concerning which version of the Bible is infallible. Such secretiveness is disconcerting. At any rate, the further I research this group, the more revealing jaywill's posts become. He appears to be on a mission to convert those he determines savable into this potential 'cult' which claims they are the only true form of Christianity, available to the unwashed masses only since the 60s. I can see, but still not understand, why they and the evangelicals are battling. How many "real" Christians that violently disagree can one fit on this planet before they are at each others throats? One thing I found quite revealing is that members of this 'cult' apparently believe that if they infuse themselves enough with the spirit of Christ, they become a 'god.' No wonder jaywill reacts so adamantly against any accusation of cheap grace. After all Bonhoeffer was only speaking about people declaring themselves saved. I think declaring oneself a god goes far beyond any self-declaration of salvation. I would even venture to say it violates the first commandment concerning having other gods before me (me presumably being the Christian God). From Apologetics Index:
quote: I think I see why jaywill considers any questioning of his supposed superiority over others an insult. Apparently he thinks he is well on his way to becoming god. I bet his response will prove interesting. Also, be sure to follow the links in the Wiki articles. Following links is something jaywill refused to do which is why he hasn't the slightest idea as to what I meant by Altemeyer's research into Right Wing Authoritarianism. A 'god' (or is that ubermensch?) incapable of following a link? unbelievable! Edited by anglagard, : better englich Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Witness Lee writes: Sooner or later, you have to be made God . . anglagard writes: I bet his response will prove interesting. If your house gets struck by lightning, we'll know who's responsible.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Index of Theological Responses to criticisms of Witness Lee and the local churches:
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/index.html
I think I see why jaywill considers any questioning of his supposed superiority over others an insult. Apparently he thinks he is well on his way to becoming god. Could you please point out where I proclaimed my "superiority" over others? Where did I do that in this discussion? Quotation please?
I bet his response will prove interesting.
Well as you know, the fabulous Internet is a nifty place to find information. And as you might expect websites cut both ways: Contending for the Faith – Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. -Philippians 1:7 has some good responses, expert court testimony, rebuttals, testimonies, and articles in response to your references. Spend some time to look around there too.
Also, be sure to follow the links in the Wiki articles. Following links is something jaywill refused to do which is why he hasn't the slightest idea as to what I meant by Altemeyer's research into Right Wing Authoritarianism. This is interesting indeed. I am a registered Democrat in my state, if you must know about my politics. Is that Okay with you or does your paranoia insist that I must be a registered Republican so I can subscribe to "Right Wing Authorianism?" Seems for some people if the only tool they have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. Thanks for the free advertizement of LSM. This usually causes seekers for rich ministry to find great ministry. Funny how slander can backfire. Keep it up. Oh, by the way, Living Stream Ministry is a Publishing House of books by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. It is not a group I am a member of. I am not an employee. I do buy a lot of the books. That's all. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
If your house gets struck by lightning, we'll know who's responsible. Quite the contrary. I hope anglegard continues to provide such excellent free advertizement to attract many seekers of the truth. Usually out of this kind of debate people come to appreciate more the ministry in the Lord's recovery. This is how I myself decided that "I have to find out for myself!" , an act which lead to the last 30 years of the most joyous fellowship and building up among fellow Christians. Could you please provide me the location of the quotation you referenced so that I may view it in its entire context? And here is an index of Theological Responses to criticisms of the local churches that have received Lee's and Nee's ministry. Page not found – Contending for the Faith Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Anglagarrd,
One thing I found quite revealing is that members of this 'cult' apparently believe that if they infuse themselves enough with the spirit of Christ, they become a 'god.' No wonder jaywill reacts so adamantly against any accusation of cheap grace. After all Bonhoeffer was only speaking about people declaring themselves saved. I think declaring oneself a god goes far beyond any self-declaration of salvation. I would even venture to say it violates the first commandment concerning having other gods before me (me presumably being the Christian God). Becomming God in our understanding does not mean these few things: 1.) Becomming omnipotent2.) Becomming omnipresent 3.) Becomming omniscient 4.) Becomming an object of worship 5.) Becomming a Creator of universes (There may be other aspects I could add to that list) Greek Orthodoxy has taught a kind of Deification or Divinization for centries. Athanasius refered to by some as "the father of orthodoxy" said that God became man so that man might become God. In "becomming God in life and nature but not in the Godhead" we do not mean that ALL attributes of God are communicable. But a son of a horse is a horse. The son of a cat is a cat. The son of a gerbil is a gerbil. The son of an eagle is an eagle. The son of a man is a man. What then is the son of God? In a very real and biblical sense the son of God is God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. We believe that Jesus is God/Man. And the Apostle John says that "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2. Witness Lee didn't put that in the Bible. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle John did. Will you resort to "guilt by association" and tie John in with Mary Baker Eddy also Angelgard? Sons of God are in the same family as God and share the life and nature of God. They just do not share the Headship of God. The Apostle Peter said that the disciples (not just those in Living Stream Ministry or who meet with local churches reciptive to Witness Lee) are "partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)". So if we proclaim to our Christian brothers and sisters throughout the world wherever they meet, that we Christians are "partakers of the divine nature{" (2 Pet .1:4), how does that make us superior to others? That is part of the Gospel. Am I right? Peter's phrase "partakers of the divine nature" does not simply observers or spectators. Partakers are participants. So it is the common portion of all Christians that have received Christ into them that they are participants and "partakers of the divine nature." Where is the sense of superiority in proclaiming what is the biblical birthright of all believers in Christ? Now is when the responses get interesting. Your reply AG? Page not found – Contending for the Faith Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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