Questions of Reliability and/or Authorship

ICANT:This is how Ezekiel 28 begins;Ezekiel 28:2 the word of the LORD says to the prince of Yyrus {Heb. ’ = leader/ruler/prince of Tzor} you are a human not a god {Heb. — — = you are a human and not a god.Ezekiel 28:4 By thy wisdom and with thy understanding thou has gotten thee riches, and has gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:Ezekiel 28:7 I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they will draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of those slain in midst the seas.The ruler of Tzor is said to be “a human being” not an angel or a god.
This appears to be in contrast to your statement:I think you are leaping to a conclusion regarding Ezekiel 28:14 and the ‘ = the kerub on account of anointed this he overshadowsThe Hebrew term “kerub” ‘ means “the like of greatness/abundance. It does not denote an “angelic figure.” And it most certainly does not describe the personification of Evil: Lucifer, Satan, Devil.Furthermore, since God created “gravity”, and I presume “water”; how gravity and water interact on planet earth is a much more reliable source of “fact and truth” than an interpretation of a piece of literature that requires one to essentially say, “for God all things are possible.”I will put my trust in “gravity” and “water”.You do whatever makes you happy.Regards,
Ger

Seems like that is what you do.The word for prince in Ezekiel 28:2 is ’ Transliteration nagiyd
means ruler, prince overseer.The word for King in Ezekiel 28:12 is — Transliteration melekThe Prince was a ruler over Tyrus. The King was the one over the Prince that he worshiped. The present King of this world.Now if you want to believe they are the same people that Ezekiel is talking about that is your option.One question. When was the human prince that is to be spoken to in Ezekiel 28:2 in Eden and the third heaven where God is?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT:If you don’t mind I would like to discuss with you the beginning of post 60:

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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

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If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that Gen. 1:1 denotes “the first day of creation” and in this “first day of creation Gen. 2:4 thru 4:26” actually takes place. Am I hearing you correctly?When referring to Gen. 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” what do you mean by, “This is a declared statement?”Is Gen. 2:1, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them,” a declared statement also? So when Gen. 1:5 concludes, “And the evening and the morning were the first day”, that is not really what it should say? According to your interpretation of the Genesis Text, what is supposed to be there is Gen. 2:4 thru 4:26; am I correct?

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Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

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You do realize that the feminine plural noun — = generations is never used anywhere in the Hebrew Old Testament to describe brute animal genealogies? Nor is it ever used to describe genealogies of plants, rocks, seas or rivers. So what does, “these are the generations of the heavens and the earth,” refer to? The Hebrew terminology for “the day” is ‘ = in day or at time. It does not specify a 24 hour period. This is precisely where you are specifically suggesting that Gen. 2:4 thru 4:26 takes place in Gen. 1:1 rather than suggesting that Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24 takes place sometime prior to Gen. 2:1 which specifically states, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.”I find it hard to grasp your interpretation that tends to rewrite the first four chapters of Genesis {a.k.a. ‘).Perhaps if you could answer the questions I have posed above you could help clear up my awkward confusion, and we could continue our discussion; your ideas are wild indeed, but I am interested in discussing them. But I need to take little bites.Thanks,
Ger

ICANTYou ask: Where do you come up with the “Mountain of God” being associated with the “third heaven”?Ezekiel 28 reiterates quite often that this “Prince of Tyrus” was endowed with considerable “wisdom” and “understanding”. With this “wisdom” and “understanding” he, a flesh and blood human being, more than likely figured out how to enter the garden of God”past those metaphorical beings who preserve the way to the tree of life”and from there he apparently made it to the “Mountain of God.” Unfortunately, this Prince of Tyrus used his good sense and fortunate circumstances to bolster his own ego and the riches of his kingdom. And, as we all should know, “Pride goes before a great fall.”At least that is how I see it.Ger

Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of the first day everything from Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 happens in the same time frame. In the evening in Genesis 1:2 The earth is in a mess, and darkness. God speaks light on the earth and divides the light from the darkness. He then declares that the evening and the next morning are the first day. There is no explanation only a statement of fact. In other words God declared it through the writer and we have the option of believing it or rejecting it. It either happened like God said or God does not exist. Genesis 1:5 is exactly where it is supposed to be at the end of the first day.God started out with the evening and the morning because the morning that went with that evening had already been. The generations in Genesis 5:1 gives how long someone lived and then begat so and so etc.Genesis 2:4 is the only instance of the generations of anything other than man.Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 is the account of or history of the day God created the heaven and the earth. Who said anything about a 24 hour time period?
If it equals at time, that would be the same time that God created the heaven and the earth would it not? If you take Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 put it between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 When you get to Genesis 2:1 everything is finished.We have a problem understanding eternity which God is eternal. We are limited to time God is not.Time is marked off from Genesis 1:5 for man's benefit. Time as we know it will cease but God will go on so will His universe.So we have a hard time thinking that Genesis 1:1 could have been billions of years ago.I really don't believe you can write a number big enough to cover the amount of time from then until now if time had been counting which it wasn't.Look at it this way to God there is just one great big now. He see's the man and woman in the garden of Eden and at the same time He see's you today and He sees you at whichever judgment you appear before. God sees all of this at one time. I am not rewriting anything. I am just trying to read everything where it says it goes.Remember the old manuscripts did not have chapters and verses. Can you imagine someone reading these verses as I have proposed they claim to go 2500 years ago. They would say no way if God created this thing He would have to have an order in which He did things. Thus for the last 200 years or more Bible scholars have been trying to mesh two stories into one by saying one expanded on the other and just dismissing all the differences.According to science this earth has seen many extinction events over time as we know it. But there has not been an extenction event since Genesis 2:1. The next extenction event will be the final one as the elements are going to melt with frevent heat.Then God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

But you totaly ignored the fact that the Prince in Ezekiel 28:2 and the King in Ezekiel 28:12 is not the same entity being addressed.I got no problem with the Prince in Ezekiel 28:2 being a human who has equated himself with God and is being brought down.But he got that haughty spirit from his father the devil (Satan). The mountain of God is where God is at. Paul paid Him a visit in the third heaven. II Cor. 12:2.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I just got back from work, I guess Ill get my popcorn and soda and settle in and read what has been going on, itlooks good.D Bertot

ICANT:Your audacious rearranging of Scripture {Hebrew, Greek, Latin & English} in order to make Scripture fit your mystically imaginative interpretation is delightfully absurd. The very idea that the Hebrew Torah was not composed/scribed or canonized in an appropriate fashion after the Exile is probably more fact than fiction. However, the fact of the matter remains; the Hebrew Torah and the Alexandrian Greek Pentateuch were scribed and translated, and set in the order in which we now find them two thousand four and three hundred years ago. The very antiquity of the Hebrew and Greek canon of the first five books of the Old Testament should inspire far more respect and humiliation than your mystical imaginings are affording them.If one must rearrange the canon of the first five books of the Hebrew Old Testament in order to make sense of them, then does that not essentially state that the Hebrew Torah and the Greek Pentateuch do not make sense? Does not the need to rearrange the canon of the first five books of the English Holy Bible, render the Holy Bible less than Holy? If the first 5 Chapters of Genesis are composed/scribed and canonized in a manner that contradict one another, does that not cast doubt on the entire Scriptural authenticity as well as the Scripture’s authority?I think you may want to rethink your imaginative interpretations of Scripture. When I translate the Hebrew Text of the Eden Narrative and apply my translations to the natural world into which I was born, I do not rearrange consonants, clauses, phrases, verses, or chapters to make them fit what I think they should say. I rearrange nothing; for I deeply respect and am in awe of the very existence of the ancient Scriptures that have somehow been preserved so that I may explore what they are conveying. Whether these ancient Scriptures were “God Breathed”, “God inspired”, or merely composed by “inspired individual human beings”, these ancient Scriptures are in fact our elders and as our elders they deserve all the respect such fore bearers of our civilization should be afforded.By audaciously rearranging Scripture to fit what you think Scripture should say, your self-centered worldview speaks volumes of the contempt you must hold for your ancestors as well as your conception of your Creator.Translate and interpret the ancient Text as it stands, or leave the ancient Text alone altogether. The very idea that it is either “your mystical interpretation” or “God is a liar” is not only the peak of ignorant human arrogance, but is such an absurd statement that only this style of a reply will suffice.Regards,
Ger

I did not interpet anything.I took the scriptures as they are written.I then read Genesis 1:1 which says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."I then read Genesis 2:4 which says: "2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"Genesis 1:1 says In the beginning. That is the time it took place. Here You said: The day means in day or at time.According to that Genesis 2:4 is the beginning of the history of the heavens and the earth at time God created the earth and the heaven.So please explain why the text does not say what it says.IOW explain why Genesis 2:4 is not the generations of the heavens and the earth as it claims.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT: Gen. 1:1 is written in the Hebrew past tense {Heb. perfect tense}, which denotes “a completed act.” Therefore, Gen. 1:1 is essentially describing that which has already been done, accomplished, finished. For this reason Gen. 1:1 is an introductory verse to that which will follow up to and including Gen. 2:1 where it is clearly stated that God has finished creating the heavens and the earth and all the host of them. Gen. 1:2 is the beginning of the creative process: “So the earth was formless and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Then the spirit of God was hovering upon the face of the waters.”Gen. 2:1 describes in the Hebrew future tense {Heb. imperfect tense}, which denotes “an incomplete act,” God hovering upon the face of the waters; an act that is in process”the beginning of the beginning.You are in fact “interpreting” the Gen. 1:1 thru 2:3 creation text when you claim that an act of creation was ongoing in between the perfect tense of Gen. 1:1, and the imperfect tense of Gen. 1:2. That is an “interpretation” and a “grammatically poor interpretation” at that. Gen. 2:4 does not in any way shape or form refer back to Gen.1:1, since Gen. 1:1 is composed in the perfect tense”a completed act”and Gen. 2:4 is composed in the Hebrew imperfect/infinitive”an ongoing act. Furthermore, the plural feminine noun toledot = — is derived from the verb yalad = — that is used exclusively to describe the “birthing process” not the “creative process.” The masculine noun yeled = — describes: a child, a son, a boy, a youth, and the feminine noun toledot = — is never used to describe brute animal genealogies, plant genealogies, celestial genealogies. The feminine noun toledot = — is only used to describe human genealogies and never refers to the Heb. verb “to create”, bara’ = ‘.Let me try to describe Gen. 2:4 by emphasizing the verbs “create” and “make”: (The following is not a translation but rather an emphasis) as they are being created”the heavens and the earth”at the time yhwh God made earth and heavens; these are the human genealogies that exist at that time.Read the above carefully and then we can discuss your thoughts.Regards,
Ger

But there are no human genealogies given.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Please explain where the past tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew. Please explain where the future tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew. Please explain where the imperfect tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew. Generations = account of men and their descendants
Generations = course of history
Generations = begetting or account of heaven

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT: You are missing the point. Above I am giving the basic foundation of the feminine plural noun: human genealogies. From this foundation toledot is further applied to generations, families, and races as well as the history or historical record of a family, According to Gesenius Old Testament Lexicon. The Hebrew Eden Narrative”Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24”strictly applies to the creation of the human race = : these are the toledot = human generations of the heavens and the earth. These human generations include you and me, as well as all those who came before and those who will come after us. I suspect you are asking how the Hebrew Perfect Tense is designated in a verb.When only the Pure Stem {Heb. Qal} of the verb is used, as in Gen. 1:1”‘”this Prue Stem always expresses the Past Tense {Heb. Perfect Tense). I suspect you are asking how the Hebrew Imperfect Tense is designated in a verb.When the Pure Stem {Heb. Qal} of the verb is prefixed by abbreviated forms of the personal pronoun or the designation of the participle (_) {referred to as “Preformatives”} this designates the Future Tense {Heb. Imperfect Tense} of the verb; as in Gen 1:2””where the participle prefix _ and the feminine 3rd person singular suffix _ = she directly relates to the incomplete action of the feminine noun = spirit. Thus, the spirit of God she hovers upon the face of the waters. In Hebrew there are only two principle tenses: 1. The Hebrew Imperfect Tense indicates an incomplete action, and this most closely relates to the English Future Tense; 2. The Hebrew Perfect Tense indicates a completed action, and this most closely relates to the English Past Tense.I have made this brief explanation as simple and straightforward as I possibly could. I hope that it gives you the information you have requested.Regards,
GerEdited by autumnman, : repair a quote

No. You are telling me that Genesis 2:4 does not say: You are telling me it says:These are the generations of the humans of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,That is interpertation. Not reading what the scripture says.Would you explain what Genesis 5:1-3 is the generations of if Genesis 2:4 is the human generations. While you are at it could you explain why there is no Cain and Able in these generations. No.I asked you to explain where the past tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew. No.I asked you to explain where the future tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew. I asked you to explain where the imperfect tense comes from in Biblical Hebrew.You tell me Hebrew has two tenses, Perfect and Imperfect.You may be correct that Hebrew has those tenses.But Biblical Hebrew has no tense at all of any kind.It has a perfect aspect which is translated into English as past tense.It has an imperfect aspect which is translated into English future tense.However, this is only an approximation of the situation.In other words it don't always work as the Bibical Hebrew has no tense in it.But you are forcing Bibical Hebrew to fit your modern molds which it simply does not fit.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT I am trying to share with you that the Hebrew Eden Narrative”Gen. 2:4 thru 3:24”is not a documentation of a prehistoric space and time. The Hebrew Eden Narrative is an allegorical/proverbial/poetic representation of how God created the breathing human animal species. Let me translate Gen. 2:4 so that it reflects this a little clearer:

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these human generations of the air and the land as they are created at the time he makes yhwh God earth and heavens

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Note that no mention is ever made of the “waters”, “seas”, or “aquatic creatures.” Note also that the author makes no mention of the “sun”, “moon”, or “the stars.” The predominant figure throughout the Eden Text is = “the human species. Pay particular attention that Gen. 5:1 thru 3 refer directly to Gen. 1:26 thru 28. No mention is made of the Eden Narrative or the Cain & Abel Text. The reason for this omission of the Eden Narrative and the Cain & Abel Text is that both of these Narratives are allegorical/proverbial/poetic in composition and do not constitute a documentation of a prehistoric space and time. The author of the Eden Narrative and the Cain and Abel Text is imparting “Wisdom Information” that applies to all generations of humanity no matter when they exist. The Phoenician/Canaanite writing system adopted by the Israelites took on its own national character around 850 BCE and became what we refer to as Paleo Hebrew {a.k.a. Old Hebrew). All texts composed in Paleo Hebrew were and are written in Kethib”letter”consonantal script. After the Exile in 586 BCE the Kethib Paleo Hebrew writing system was replaced by the Aramaic New {a.k.a. Biblical} Kethib Hebrew writing system. Documents composed in both Kethib Paleo Hebrew and Kethib Biblical Hebrew are part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Old Testament {a.k.a. Tanakh} documents are “amazingly similar to the Masoretic Kethib Hebrew Torah as well as the Samaritan Kethib Paleo Hebrew Pentateuch.” The following is a quote from post 3 of this thread presented by bertot:

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With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Bible scholars have been able to compare the present day text with the text from more than 2,000 years ago. Textual critics have found that these ancient copies of Old Testament books are amazingly similar to the Massoretic text.

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Modern Hebrew has nothing whatsoever to do with the “Tense” designations of the Paleo Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch or the Masoretic Kethib Biblical Hebrew Torah. The “Tense” designations”Perfect & Imperfect”are present in the Kethib Texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the Paleo Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch.Your assertion that is not supported by any of the information I have ever come across. Where is it documented that “Biblical Hebrew has no tense at all of any kind”? I would very much like to read that particular article. Furthermore, if that were true, the Alexandrian Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures”regardless of its translation quality”could never have been performed; and the English Holy Bibles based on the Biblical Hebrew Texts would be extremely inaccurate as well.Regards,
Ger