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Author Topic:   Evidence of species alive today?
Niw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 23 (55241)
09-13-2003 11:51 AM


Is there any fossil evidence of species alive today dated to be same as the dino?
That would be the one way to show god created everthing at the same time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by John, posted 09-13-2003 12:19 PM Niw has replied
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John
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 23 (55244)
09-13-2003 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Niw
09-13-2003 11:51 AM


quote:
That would be the one way to show god created everthing at the same time.
No, it wouldn't. All it would show is that the particular species had survived since the time of the dinosaurs. It would not prove that everything had survived that long, or that everything was created at the same time.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 3 of 23 (55263)
09-13-2003 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Niw
09-13-2003 11:51 AM


I think you find there are no species alive that long....... you Do however have relatives of modern Species like Frogs , Crocs , sharks etc... that lived long ago. But there are no Species that last that long

This message is a reply to:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5224 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 4 of 23 (55269)
09-13-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by DC85
09-13-2003 4:42 PM


I seem to recall a tardigrade type critter that was indistinguishable from a fossil. Can't remember if it went back to the Mesozoic, but it was pretty old, nonetheless.

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Niw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 23 (55344)
09-14-2003 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by John
09-13-2003 12:19 PM


quote:
All it would show is that the particular species had survived since the time of the dinosaurs.
Understand.. what you say is true. I should have said fossils of all or most of the species alive today found to be living at the time of dinos? Is there any evidence by creationist of that?
If saying creation is true... won't it be super easy to find a fossils of example a cow/elephant/Giraffe dated the same as dinos? Dated say 500MYR when it was the time for fishes . Any evidence?
[This message has been edited by Niw, 09-14-2003]
[This message has been edited by Niw, 09-14-2003]

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 Message 2 by John, posted 09-13-2003 12:19 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2003 6:35 AM Niw has not replied
 Message 7 by John, posted 09-14-2003 10:53 AM Niw has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 23 (55352)
09-14-2003 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Niw
09-14-2003 2:30 AM


I should have said fossils of all or most of the species alive today found to be living at the time of dinos? Is there any evidence by creationist of that?
Yeah, like how come you never find grass and dinosaurs? It's not like the Flood is going to sort plants, after all. Why don't we find them together?

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John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 23 (55361)
09-14-2003 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Niw
09-14-2003 2:30 AM


Well, of course, if the fossil record showed all species living at the same time, there may have never been a TOE at all. It certainly wouldn't have survived long. Would such prove creation? hmmm.... prove is such a strong word. Emotionally, it would be quite compelling. But the fossil record is so very far from showing what you describe that it isn't even worth considering. Creationists, by the way, will respond by claiming that the fossil record does not reflect time, but the 'hydraulic sorting' activity of the flood.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Niw, posted 09-14-2003 2:30 AM Niw has replied

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Niw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 23 (55366)
09-14-2003 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
09-14-2003 10:53 AM


Ic Ic so they would question the dating methods....thanks for reply...

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DC85
Member
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 23 (55367)
09-14-2003 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Niw
09-14-2003 11:12 AM


well as crash was saying.. that idea doesn't make sense..... I mean we don't find grass and many other plants in the fossial record early on... so I wonder how they expalin that..... did the Grass up root and run with the mammals?

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matto154
Inactive Junior Member


Message 10 of 23 (56477)
09-19-2003 11:00 AM


Actually, I don't remember the name of it, but a few Japanese fisherman caught a fish off the coast of Japan that was supposed to have been extinct a very long time ago. I'm not sure if it goes back to the dinosaurs, but it may be pretty close. Someone may want to look into this farther, I don't have time right now. And no, this does not prove that God created all species at the same time. It merely shows that this fish lay dorment for all these years, away from human observation.

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 11 of 23 (56481)
09-19-2003 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by matto154
09-19-2003 11:00 AM


Coelacanth, I think. Although I'm not sure of the spelling. Read 'A fish caught in time' for a fascinating discussion of it, and the discovery of it still living.
However, although it the same sort of fish as those that existed many millions of years ago, it is a different species.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 23 (56483)
09-19-2003 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by matto154
09-19-2003 11:00 AM


No need - this case has been discussed here before. The evidence makes it all but certain that what was caught was the decayed remains of a modern shark (a basking shark IIRC).

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by some_guy, posted 09-19-2003 7:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
some_guy
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 23 (56579)
09-19-2003 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
09-19-2003 11:09 AM


Paul K i think you and mistaken, he was not speaking of the "supposed" plesasuar. But of a prehistoric fish.
But here are some other animals that in an evolutionist timeline may have been alive during the dinosaurs:
horseshoe crab
coelacanth
ginkgo tree
Tuatara
Wollemi Pine
Neopilina molluscs
trilobite(now thats extremly contraversial, but there is some evidence/theories/hoaxs)

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 14 of 23 (56585)
09-19-2003 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by some_guy
09-19-2003 7:05 PM


Maybe - but it is a bit of a coincidence that both were found off Japan.
Anyway I know that the modern coelocanths are not even the same family as the known fossils and I would not be surprised if that applies to many of the others (fossil molluscs are generally identified by the shell so its hard to be sure how similar the organism itself was). IIRC the "trilobites" are some other species which looks rather similar but is not even thought to be a close relative

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5901 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 15 of 23 (56642)
09-20-2003 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by some_guy
09-19-2003 7:05 PM


Hi everyone. Apologies for my enforced absence recently. I'm hoping to get some more time to devote to the board soon.
I would like to make a quick response to some-guy, however. The major problem with the entire "living fossil" concept is that it ignores the fact that the living representatives are almost invariably the last remnants or relicts of highly diverse groups of organisms. Although making a great sound-bite, the term "living fossil" is misleading. Almost invariably, these few survivors are 1) different from their fossil ancestors, showing that they've continued to evolve; 2) are found in highly isolated, often extremely environmentally stable locales; and 3) usually have very small populations - some of which (like the Sphenodon spp. or Wollemia nobilis) are hovering at the margins of extinction.
Taking your list to illustrate my point (although I don't know anything about molluscs, unfortunately - lack of interest on my part rather than lack of data):
horseshoe "crab" (actually closer to spiders and other arthropods, not crustaceans): only four living species in three genera still extant from a hugely successful group that extends back to the Upper Cambrian (520 mya). Last remnants of a family containing 12 genera and over 25 identified species. The most common representative, Limulus polyphemus - the one found often on the Atlantic coast of Mexico, the US and Canada, for instance - has NO fossil record indicating its ancestry, and the genus itself only extends back ~20 mya. The other five members of the genus are all extinct, as are most other members of the family. The horseshoe crab we see today did NOT live at the same time as the dinos.
coelacanths: Again, another highly diverse group of organisms (order Coelacanthiformes) which only left two species (and possibly two additional species or subspecies). In this case, we have only two species out of an entire order still living - meaning three complete families comprising dozens of species have all gone extinct. In addition, the two living species are greatly different in morphology to their nearest fossil relative, indicating that evolution has proceeded apace. In fact, they represent a fairly extreme example of "true gradualism" - tiny incremental changes over vast periods of time. Since the two living representatives are both deep-sea species living in the open ocean in fairly out-of-the-way locales, it's not surprising that they were essentially unknown to Western science until recently.
ginkgo: The ginkgo is probably one of the most extreme examples of what I'm referring to. One single species (Ginkgo balboa) living from what was a phenomenally diverse clade with 6 families and 19 genera, all of which are extinct. Moreover, G. balboa is the last remaining member of its genus, which is credited with over 12 species all by itself. There's a fascinating (well, to me, anyway) article in the journal Paleobiology (Royer DL, Hickey LJ, Wing SL 2003 "Ecological conservatism in the 'living fossil' Ginkgo", Paleobiology 29:84-101) that goes fair to illustrating how such a relictual species could come into existence and persist.
From the abstract:
The living species Ginkgo biloba is phylogenetically isolated, has a relictual distribution, and is morphologically very similar to Mesozoic and Cenozoic congenerics. To investigate what adaptations may have allowed this lineage to persist with little or no morphological change for over 100 Myr, we analyzed both sedimentological and floral data from 51 latest Cretaceous to middle Miocene Ginkgo-bearing fossil plant sites in North America and northern Europe. The resulting data indicate that throughout the late Cretaceous and Cenozoic Ginkgo was largely confined to disturbed streamside and levee environments, where it occurred with a consistent set of other plants. These inferred habitats are surprising because the life-history traits of Ginkgo (e.g., slow growth rate, late reproductive maturity, extended reproductive cycle, large and complex seeds, large and slowly developing embryos) are counter to those considered advantageous in modern disturbed habitats. Many flowering plant lineages first appeared or became common in disturbed riparian habitats, and are inferred to have had reproductive and growth traits (e.g., rapid reproduction, small easily dispersed seeds, rapid growth) suited to such habitats. Paleoecological inferences based on both morphology and sedimentary environments thus support the idea that Ginkgo was displaced in riparian habitats by angiosperms with better adaptations to frequent disturbance.
tuatara: Once again we're looking at a once-highly-diverse order (Rhynchocephalia) of which only two closely-related, highly isolated species in a single genus exist (Sphenodon spp.). All other members of the entire order are extinct. From an ecology standpoint, it’s quite clear that the only reason they were able to survive when all of their relatives perished was their presence on an isolated oceanic island (New Zealand) — where they’ve been all alone since the breakup of Gondwanaland. And again, the living species are morphologically distinct from their nearest fossil ancestor.
Wollemi pine: A very relictual population - a prime example of the adage that nature always holds surprises. In the case of Wollemia nobilis, we not only are looking at the last remaining species of a diverse group of plants, but may be looking at the last three individuals (because of the way the species propagates) of a once thriving and extremely widespread population. Isolated in their box canyon, these three individuals have survived not only the extinction of their family, but all of the other members of their own species. A true relict in every sense of the word. Although the exact phylogeny of Wollemia hasn't been completely worked out, it appears that its nearest fossil relatives - not identical - were alive during the Cretaceous. The genus Wollemia itself seems to be a sister genus to the genus Dilwynites from the Late Cretaceous (reference: Chambers, T. Carrick, Andrew N. Drinnan and Stephen McLoughlin. 1998. Some morphological features of wollemi pine (Wollemia nobilis: Araucariaceae) and their comparison to Cretaceous plant fossils. International Journal of Plant Sciences 159: 160-171). However, there is no indication that it existed at the time of the dinosaurs alongside its nearest Araucarician relatives.
My biggest problem with the "living fossil" designation is that it ignores the incredible diversity of life which has lived, flourished, and died out - leaving only these impoverished remnants of once-great lineages. Changed, reduced, and isolated, these species are wonderful reminders of the glorious heritage we've inherited from the past. To be misused through misunderstanding as some kind of "refutation" of evolution - rather than a perfect example of the same - is saddening.

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