Always talking about micro-evolution?

quote:

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DNA analysis can establish paternity beyond any shadow of a doubt

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Actually I read an article recently about uman chimera's that
basically means the above is false. In one instance DNA indicated
that a mother was not the mother of two of her children .... even
though she was!!Further testing revealed that her body cells were made from
two separately fertilised eggs that had fused very early
in development -- resulting in a single individual but with
two different sets of nuclear DNA.Further analysis revealed the truth of the situation, but
standard paternity tests can give false negatives.Oh --- hang on -- I re-read what you said and agree.If the test is positive it is beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Sorry about that -- I'll leave the rest though cause
I think it's interesting.

quote:

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The gene, chromosome, and DNA "evidence" that you may present is flawed and changing every year, so please don't bother; even the atheist scientist community is in disagreement with itself over that constantly changing controversial "evidence."

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Hmm. You seem to have access to "flaws" and "disagreements" in genetics and cytogenetic and DNA evidence that I the rest of the scientific community is unaware of...enlighten us pleeze Funny that you claim that scientific community is atheist. In fact the majority of scientists are believers in one religion or another. One of the directors of the Human Genome Project is a devout Christian. Let's see your evidence for your assertion.You whined about my comment about nitwit creationists...this is why I made such a comment. Someone like you who clearly has never bothered to inform themselves about what the theory of evolution states comes onto the site, makes the same old refuted arguments based on ignorance and cartoonish misrepresentations of science, makes the same old "all scientists are atheists" claim (while enjoying the fruit of our labors in the form of technology and medicine no less), makes a steady stream of assertions that are not supported, in other words, nitwit creationists. I have yet to see an original argument from you guys. It is like you are all mental clones unable to learn and unable to realize that all of the points you bring up as if they were original have been debated ad naseum . Tell your avatar to watch out..he might walk off that flat earth or step on a cud chewing rabbit.

Skeptick,I agree with Crash, the issue you have with DNA is the botched police jobs (whether due to using too few profile loci or just plain sloppy lab work) that have landed innocent people in trouble. I think you should check out this site with info on DNA profiling problems, because it at least explains the methodology that's supposed to be followed in using DNA profiles.Then you could check out the link I posted on molecular family trees, because that is a completely different issue. We understand the notion of heredity and how evolution accounts for the nested hierarchies in nature. How do you account for them?

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The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

Interesting. That was much quicker than your predecessors.Ok, I'm open to education. Can you give me a more precise figure? "Almost zero" could mean "0.0001" just as easily as "0.00000001" depending on context, viewpoint, and purpose. If you could show me your math, I would appreciate that too.I thank you for your time. I may not respond back for a couple of days as I'm going away for a short vacation. But I will be checking for your response as soon as I can.Thank you.

Hi Skeptick,Here is one reference where they use a population specific estimate
(note, the OJ Simpson trial came before the widespread use of DNA forensics. It has since greatly improved)Forensic Sci Int. 1999 Apr 12;101(1):27-32. Related Articles, LinksPhilippine population database at nine microsatellite loci for forensic and paternity applications.Halos SC, Chu JY, Ferreon AC, Magno MM.DNA Analysis Laboratory, University of the Philippines, Diliman, Quezon City, Philippines.Allele frequency distributions for a Filipino population from the National Capital Region (NCR) were determined for eight STR loci: HUMF13A01, HUMFES/FPS, HUMvWA, HUMFOLP23, HUMD8S306, HUMCSFIPO, HUMTPOX and HUMTHO1; and a VNTR locus: D1S80. Statistical analysis showed that the nine loci showed no deviations from Hardy-Weinberg and linkage equilibrium rules. The average power of paternity exclusion for the nine loci is 0.9962 and the discriminating power is 1-2 x 10(-9). The data obtained from this study will be used as reference data for forensic DNA typing in the Philippines.Electrophoresis. 1995 Sep;16(9):1612-6. Related Articles, LinksGenetic typing with HUMTH01, HUMVWA31A and HUMFES/FPS short tandem repeat loci, D1S80 variable number tandem repeat locus and HLA-DQ alpha of recent and from XII-XIII centuries spongy bone.de Pancorbo MM, Castro A, Alonso S, Fernandez-Fernandez I, Barbero C, Garcia-Orad A, Izaguirre N, Iriondo M, de la Rua C.Departamento de Biologia Celular y Ciencias Morfologicas, Facultad de Medicine y Odontologia, Universidad del Pais Vasco, Leioa (Bizkaia), Spain.The genetic analysis of ancient populations through DNA from bone remains, requires use of short sized loci that can be amplified by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) for which the short tandem repeat (STR) loci are most suitable. These techniques can also be applied to genetic identification in forensic casework. In this study three STR loci, HUMFES/FPS, HUMTH01, and HUMVWA31A, were selected to estimate their usefulness when applied to recent and ancient spongy bone DNA typing. In addition, loci D1S80 and HLA DQ alpha were also tested in the analysis of recent spongy bone DNA. The recent remains studied were constituted by ten spongy bone samples of postmortem material from one individual buried for 1 year. The ancient remains are composed by 8 spongy bone samples from the heads of left femurs from a XII-XIII Centuries Basque Country population. Adequate amplification and typing results could only be obtained with cetyltrimethyl ammonium bromide (CTAB)-extracted DNA, without any further purification after precipitation. Genotypes of the one year post-mortem material and those of his son and his wife were obtained at the D1S80, HLA-DQ alpha, and STR loci. In all these systems, no exclusion was observed, with a combined probability of paternity of 0.9997. This demonstrates the reliability of the obtained results. The genetic typing of HUMTH01 in spongy bone from the XII-XIII Centuries Basque Country individuals was also performed. This will allow the genetic analysis of ancient bone remains and therefore, to carry out evolutionary population studies.J Forensic Sci. 2002 Jan;47(1):66-96. Related Articles, LinksTWGDAM validation of AmpFlSTR PCR amplification kits for forensic DNA casework.Holt CL, Buoncristiani M, Wallin JM, Nguyen T, Lazaruk KD, Walsh PS.PE Applied Biosystems, Human Identification Group, Foster City, CA, USA.Laboratory procedures used in short tandem repeat (STR) analysis were subjected to various scenarios that assessed reliability and identified potential limitations. These validation studies were designed as recommended by the Technical Working Group on DNA Analysis Methods (TWGDAM) and the DNA Advisory Board (DAB) (17,18). Various DNA samples were amplified by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) using AmpFlSTR PCR Amplification Kits (i.e., AmpFlSTR Green I, Profiler, Profiler Plus, and COfiler kits), detected with ABI Prism instrumentation, and analyzed using GeneScan and Genotyper software. Data acquired in these studies reinforced an existing body of knowledge and expertise regarding application and interpretation of STR typing in the forensic science community. Consistent STR genotypes were detected in various body tissues and fluids. Inter-laboratory comparisons produced concordant genotype results. Quantitative interpretational aids for DNA mixtures were characterized. Ability of the typing systems to type potentially compromised samples reliably was evaluated. Nonprobative case evidentiary DNA was successfully amplified, genotyped, and interpreted. Potential limitations or cautionary factors in the interpretation of minimal fluorescence intensity were demonstrated. Differential amplification between loci was observed when PCR was inhibited; preferential amplification typically was not. Single AmpFlSTR locus amplification did not offer consistent benefit over AmpFlSTR multiplexing, even in cases of DNA degradation or PCR inhibition. During rigorous evaluation, AmpFlSTR PCR Amplification Kits reproducibly yielded sensitive and locus-specific results, as required in routine forensic analyses.and here is a cautionary tale...as with any method there are ways to confound the analysis. 1 way is a clever crook could spray multiple different DNAs all over a crime scene making it impossible to get an accurate genotype. Another is illustrated here in this paper where heavy inbreeding in a population can lead to false positive identificationCroat Med J. 2003 Jun;44(3):322-6. Related Articles, LinksHow high should paternity index be for reliable identification of war victims by DNA typing?Birus I, Marcikic M, Lauc D, Dzijan S, Lauc G.DNA Laboratory, Osijek University School of Medicine, Osijek, Croatia.AIM: To analyze statistically and logically the significance of genetic matches between skeletal remains and relatives of missing persons in the process of identification of war victims by DNA typing. METHODS: DNA was isolated from bone and blood samples and short tandem repeat (STR) loci were typed by using AmpFLSTR Profiler, Profiler Plus, and Identifiler kits. Novel mini-haplotype analysis that compares matches in all three-locus combinations of alleles was developed and used in the analysis of inbreeding in the group of 295 unrelated individuals. RESULTS: While comparing 98 skeletal remains exhumed in the process of identification of war victims in Croatia with over 3,000 genotypes of relatives of missing persons, we revealed 20 cases of 14-locus matches and 4 cases of 15-locus matches between unrelated people. We hypothesized that this unexpectedly high number of false matches might be a consequence of local inbreeding and supported this hypothesis with very low correlation between the probability of a genotype and the number of matching genotypes in the database (R(2) = 0.36). Further support for the hypothesis was obtained by the analysis of mini-haplotypes, which revealed up to 90% overrepresentation of some mini-haplotypes. CONCLUSIONS: STR DNA typing is the "golden standard" of human identification, but evidential value of a genetic match can be easily misinterpreted. Therefore, careful use of statistical methods is essential for the proper evaluation of laboratory results. Whenever possible, multiple relatives should be analyzed and other evidence based on the information about time, place, and other conditions of disappearance, as well as anthropological and other "classical" forensic data should always be put together and compared before any final decision about the identity is made.Though false matches occurred, the data is STILL more reliable than any other form of forensic data and less susceptible to false positives or negatives. In addition, unlike other forms of evidence, more and more STR loci can and are being identified that are useful so if anything the technique will continue to improve.

My dear Mammuthus,
I believe we were already fully aware of your outstanding abilities to copy and paste. I really thought maybe I could have a decent conversation with you. Instead, you have reduced this discussion, like so many others, by going technical. Truly, I thought we could have avoided that. If all we do is copy and paste stuff off en masse off the web, well, I think you get the point. I'm here to pick the brains of other human begins and enjoy some authentic dialogue. So,Could we rewind and start over? I would appreciate an answer to my question of post #49. I thanked you for your time, and do so once again. I'll be back from vacation in a couple days.

Oooh we wouldn't want to get technical and confuse anyone would we?

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Common sense isn't

thank you ned. i started laughing as soon as i read your post.

Okay, what wise guy told Skeptick that evolution wrote Mein Kampf? Was it you, Ned?

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The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

i think you should change your name skeptick. you are obviously not living up to it. how about just plain "tick". it suits you more. by the way, did you hear that darwin had a tatoo of a swastika on his butt? nah, me neither!

I never said anything about "confuse." You did, and that revealed a little something about your motives. The subject matter that was
copied and pasted was already familiar to me, sorry about being a
little ahead of you. I made my statement because becoming "technical" in the way Mamuthus demonstrated would ultimately lead to a copy and paste war of others' research. You are the one who brought up the idea of "confusing" people, which indeed revealed a glimpse of your inner workings, intents, and methods of debate (whether you use those methods or just approve of those who do).Invariably, in a forum like this, someone always walks into that (and I mean every time). My suggestion to Mammuthus was sincere, yet designed with the standard fail-safe required to protect oneself from those who have no or virtually imperceptible debating skills. However, since you've claimed (in another topic board) to be (and I quote you) "pretty smart", I certainly wouldn't have thought that you would be the one to snap at it. Waitaminit. Aren't you the guy (from a different post) who offered his abilities to evaluate my debating methods? And then you generate a post like this? Had I hired you, I would now fire you. I haven't claimed to be a debater, you did (in a way).But can we get back to the question I asked Mammuthus?

Couldn't think of anything else to say, eh? Certainly sticking to the subject. Or did you mean to leave this post at http://www.standupcomedytrainingforthehumorimpaired.com. I've never been there, but the name of it sounds right up your alley.

I guess you knew better than to direct a straw man comment directly toward me, so you did indirectly? Since we've made reference to Hitler, it's humorous to not the Germans have a phrase for that: "...der sucht sich Kameraden..." (It invariably happens when someone can't stand on their own.)
I'm sure Mammuthus could crack a smile for that one.[This message has been edited by Skeptick, 02-05-2004]

It seems to me that the papers that Mammuthus refered to were analysing exactly that issue. The abstracts don't show any statistical calculations which is what I think you want. You'd need to read the whole paper for the exact numbers.

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Common sense isn't

Thanks for not responding to any of my posts which actually involve evolution. I guess you understand when you're a bit out of your depth. Hitler, abortion, and atheism have nothing to do with the theory of evolution by natural selection.

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The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall