immigrants

So how do you identify who should be here?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

My reply would be lengthy, but OT.
Many concerns of my own and others have already been expressed in this thread.

Frankly, I see that it is the left wing that gone radical, subverting foundational concepts of liberal demcoracy, such as rights being based on the individual, not sub group collectives. Such as demanding more and more social programs. Such as giving into naively idealist notions of multiculturalism - as exemplified in this thread - which demonstrate a loss of sense of self, of the meaning of liberal democracy, of our history and our civilization. Such as determining justice through selective stats, rather than laws (i.e., equality of results, rather than equality of opportunity). Such as using activist courts to achieve what the electorate rejects. Such as attempting the perfection of society (statistical equality, and trying to legally compel employers and organizations to prove equal opportunity through statistics). And all that necessarily entails the diminishment of freedom, common sense, and undermines the basis of liberal democracy. Etc., etc. But that, I agree, is Off Topic.

quote:

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explain how it is that you conservatives have become so anti-'liberal' of late. The attitudes you guys have toward immigrants is anything but liberal. I don't see much understanding or empathy from your side - just protectionist sentiment

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First, I have never been liberal or socialist. I believe it sounds nobel, but in practice, it deteriorates a society, as we have seen in Eastern Europe, Asia and are now starting to see in Europe. The costs and lack of incentives take their toll over time.It may be that on average, the cost of adequately maintaining one us homosapiens and our environment is more than we each produce... kind of a law of societal entropy.As for xenophobia, think of it in the reverse: Why are the Mexicans so xenophobic about American culture and language. It is the choice of the people on this land. Just like they want to keep their Mexican culture in Mexico (and same is true for every country), we want to keep ours. Otherwise, as CanadianSteve so wisely points out, division is inevitable.

You are aware that 'liberal' and 'socialist' are not the same thing aren't you?
there wasn't much that was liberal about eastern european socialismConservatives in the US have a real problem separating them.This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-18-2006 01:13 PM

Being liberal doesn't make you socialist, but this is OT. I don't think they are. They seem to embrace a lot of things about American culture. They just want to preserve some of their own cultural traditions as well. Whatever happened to the 'melting pot'?
You only get to make an impact on the nation's culture if your family came over prior to 1900? It is only inevitable on two conditions. 1) all immigrants remain completely entrenched in their own cultural traditions and refuse to accept or respect any cultural influences of their adopted country (very few, I suspect) and 2) on the other side, people like you and Steve persist in defending a highly polarized position at the other extreme - only total assimilation is acceptable. (Reminds me of the Borg - resistance to rigid conservativism is futile.) You are contributing to the division because you are removing the middle ground, or refusing to acknowledge that there is any.

Damn good points.. said way better than I could've hoped to.

Thanks.
What is also apparent is that the *perceived political leanings* of immigrants somehow enters into the equation of their acceptability. Steve seems to think they are all 'socialists in the making', and lord knows, we don't need any more of those.ABE. I guess it's a good thing for me old Steve wasn't the one signing off on MY green card eh?This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-18-2006 12:41 PM

Both you and previous responder misread the statement... I said "liberal OR socialist"... I did not claim they are the same, although they seem to go hand in hand with a lot of people. Exactly! That is what we are asking, EZ ! You still don't seem to realize that a substantial many do not want to melt ! This is our house! They should abide by our rules, not the other way around.My impression of the liberal thinking on this is:
1. You can't expel them, so make them citizens (it's "not right" to call them criminals)
2. Give them water at the border so that they won't suffer when trespassing.
3. Multiculturism (instead of melting pot) does not lead to problems

You deny in one breath, and concede your implied association in the next. Is this simply your general impression or are there some actual data that might support this assertion?
Also, to clarify the analogy, it is the cultural identity of the *country* that was construed to melt to form an amalgam of many contributing cultures. It doesn't imply we melt *people* to dissolve away their cultural indentity, even though this might be what it would take for you to become more accepting of immigrants. Simply your impression, but hardly representative of ALL libaral thinking, or even what most non-conservatives might opine. You are trying to use 'liberal' as big net to catch a lot of very different fish - all fish that you consider to be pests in your pond.This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-18-2006 02:37 PM

Hmmm. That was not on MY list to stop ILLEGALentry, but it's another good point.

Regarding my statement that many illegals from Mexico do not want to "melt" (i.e. assimilate, as in melting pot) Besides knowing about the activists that blatantly admit that they want to reclaim the border states, I base my statement on observation in South Texas and even in Houston. As the Latino population has grown, there is less need (and thus incentive) to speak and write in English, and more desire to bring Mexico into Texas, such as celebrating Cinco de Mayo and complaining that Texas Independence Day is "insensitive" to Mexicans.One more item I forgot to add to the list of liberal thinking:
- They make personal attacks (like the two in your previous response)

Damn Right. Many of us don't want to melt.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think your knowlege of history is distorted and one-sided, and you need to make more of an effort to read more about people in the times in question could have fooled me

thanks for showing how little you understand what i was saying. If we are talking about one of the first countries to prepose seperation,the USA, it was purely because the christian religions effect had such a terrible effect on them.nice job on distorting what i said by the way