Too Many Flaws with Evolution

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ringostore:
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You didn't read this properly gene90. Evolution is an advancement process, a movement in stages.[/QUOTE][/b]It's an advancement to greater fitness. Not necessarily to greater complexity. This goes back to roaches and nuclear war again.I won't contest that there are stages involved, but they are minute and it is difficult to tell where they begin and end. There is no organism that looks very much unlike its parents, in other words. [QUOTE][b]You did? Your outcome?[/QUOTE][/b]You won't like it. [QUOTE][b]Evolution is a "religion". A religion is a set of beliefs, be that whatever principle you stand for. Religion is a very general term for defining structured beliefs.[/QUOTE][/b]I'm not sure how "whatever principle you stand for" plays in science but, if evolution is a religion, so is the Theory of Gravity and every other scientific theory. Relativity and Atomic Theory are two other religions. Science must therefore be a meta-religion. It's even easier to call other common thought-constructs religions. Democrats and Republicans are two competing religions. Patriotism is a religion. Environmentalism is a religion. Pro-life and Pro-choice are religions.This is what TC meant when he said there are a lot of religions around. How do we decide which one we should limit ourselves to when we are members of several? [QUOTE][b]You have developed a "religion" and now it can hopelessly be taught to others.[/QUOTE][/b]I contend that it is a theory, not a religion. A religion usually deals with the supernatural and often has a reward or punishment system for misbehaving and offers access to a higher power in life.None of these are present in evolution or any of the above 'examples' I used in my reduction to absurdity above.Also the definition of "religion", from dictionary.com :"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religion

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[This message has been edited by gene90, 07-08-2002]

I can live with that interpretation. Like I said, that Jehoveh was a co-craftsman is stated outright in the New Testament anyway.

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Originally posted by gene90:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

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The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

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http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religion

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Damn, I was off to the natural history museum to do some praying, guess evolution isn't religion after all!Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by mark24:
Damn, I was off to the natural history museum to do some praying, guess evolution isn't religion after all!

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Mark

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Don't pull that bus pass out yet Mark, gene90 didn't copy and paste the whole definition. Come you guys you gotta give more effort than this.religion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
1. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.wait a minute.....WHAT IS THIS? Number 3!So the evolutionary theories and feasablities are not done with zeal or a pursued activity.Oh and how about the theosaurus....religion found in 3 items.
Piety
Excerpt: "... sentiments Piety. piety, religion, theism, faith; religiousness..."
[View Entry]
Theology
Excerpt: "... mystery; monotheism; religion; religious persuasion, religious..."
[View Entry]
Impiety
Excerpt: "...-ridden. under the mask of religion, under the cloak of religion..."
[View Entry]what's this? Theology?Evolutionary theories.....theology......theories.....theology....The point is fellas you don't worship bananas with whipped cream like Mark does. It is something that is done either it be his hunger or maybe he has an addiction. However evolution is not something by which your Creator programed in you, for you to survive or be addicted to. Evolution is obviously a desire or your belief in origin and destiny. Personally I think you just don't want to be catagorized with those that you think belong to the word "religion".

Ringo, so is all science religion, then?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

You have again rendered your argument useless. There is then no point to argue that Evolution is religious. Synonymously you could say that Bread is made from flour. In the definition you have selected:3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.conscientious would of course be used in the context of assiduousity or, without just adding my own little suffixes, assiduousness.
--You've stated that your point is 'to make clear that whatever you believe in, is a "religion" '. This makes the ToE a perfectly reasonable 'belief'. [To a degree I would disagree with peter's rationalization that you do not 'believe' in Evolution if your an Evo]------------------

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Originally posted by ringostore:
Personally I think you just don't want to be catagorized with those that you think belong to the word "religion".

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For myself, I confess to holding this bias. The term 'religion' is loaded with spanning millenia. However technically correct it may or may not be, the allusions the word carries don't fit into the world of science.Any train of thought can be traced back to some set of unverifiable assumptions. Logic cannot prove its own premises. Mathematics cannot prove its premises. Empiricism, upon which science is based, assumes that what we see is representative of reality-- what you see is what you get. Religion assumes this (if even this much) and much more-- God, the supernatural, whatever. The only thing that makes sense is to go with the fewest number of assumption.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

One more tid bit, I just saw on TV, a man who was elated at the recent soccer(FIFA) games. The atheistic jerk definitely wanted to bash Christianity from his words "Soccer is awesome.....it's the new RELIGION!" Go figure.

The definition of religion intended by the constitutional ammendment requiring separation of church and state is definition 1, "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power..."While one can pursue an activity with the religious zeal of definition 3, that doesn't make it the object of worship of definition 1.Because it is based upon the account of creation from Genesis 1 and 2 in the Christian bible, Creationism is religion. And because evolution is based upon evidence gathered from the natural world it is science.--Percy

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[This message has been edited by Admin, 07-09-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ringostore:
oh please....------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by ringostore:
One more tid bit, I just saw on TV, a man who was elated at the recent soccer(FIFA) games. The atheistic jerk definitely wanted to bash Christianity from his words "Soccer is awesome.....it's the new RELIGION!" Go figure.

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But by your definition, soccer is a religion, since it fits point 3. "activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."So, tell me, do you really think soccer is religion? Personally, I think to do something "religiously", is comparing to a true religions activity, rather than by definition be religious in its own right.I repeat, is all science religion, then?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 07-09-2002]

You think evolution matches the last definition of the word? Then you quote the thesaurus...and find nothing that is even relevant to science? Finally, the reduction to absurdity still stands. If you think The Theory of Gravity is also a religion, it doesn't make any difference to me if you think ToE is also. [QUOTE][b]Evolutionary theories.....theology......theories.....theology....[/QUOTE][/b]I don't see the connection, sorry. See also the above. [QUOTE][b]Evolution is obviously a desire or your belief in origin and destiny.[/QUOTE][/b]Actually it's a mechanism to explain the diversity of life. With or without a Creator, it doesn't matter. (That's your problem with it, isn't it?) I hear the Taliban calling.

[QUOTE][b]I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or acknowledging the fact that Christianity, like most religions, is just a means to the end, whether real or not.[/QUOTE][/b]It is a means to an end. [QUOTE][b]I can think of two other scenarios that are either more realistic or make more sense: 1) (realistic) An omnipotent being that created life on Earth, that at most is a non-interfering observer [/QUOTE][/b]Seems kind of pointless to me. If the Creator is omnipotent then there is no need to observe. The outcomes would all be known before even beginning. Plus the Creator would be abandoning the creations at death, when it could provide something better for them. Finally if suffering existed without an ultimate justice the Creator would be allowing all sorts of pain needlessly for its own amusement. Life ends up being like a really big Roman Colosseum where blood is spilt
for the amusement of others. Of course, I would expect an Omnipotent Creator, who already knows who would win anyway, would more likely find some much more interesting (and incomprehensible) way to whittle away eternity, unless there were some charity involved (for us). And that notion of charity leads us back to my view of reality. [QUOTE][b](makes more sense in a Christian world) An omnipotent being that is the God that Christians say he is, a father type figure who will reserve tragedy and loss for the evil and wicked, and limit tragedy and loss to the pure of heart.[/QUOTE][/b]How do you know that the pure of heart are not sheltered somewhat from tragedy and loss even temporally? Also, all needs of the pure in heart (and faithful) are redressed in the final reckoning, so much as they do as they are supposed to do. But some tragedy and loss are necessary to grow. That is why we have mortality in the first place. Ultimately though, wickedness serves to punish the wicked. [QUOTE][b]Another case of "not making sense". Man can be good and moral without knowledge of God or worshipping God[/QUOTE][/b]That is true, and the just who do not know God are still rewarded in the afterlife, and their assignments are to live amongst others who are equally just and moral. But because they rejected God they cannot be in God's presence. (Does that make sense as it is written? I can elaborate further.) [QUOTE][b]nd to think that those people in this category are denied the eternal happyland afterlife is sad.[/QUOTE][/b]The doctrine I adhere to is that all these people will be taught after the resurrection, and those that are righteous (or genuinely repentant) will go to the better place, and the remainder of the just who reject the gospel will go to a place much like Earth. The number of people who will fall into that category is enormous. [QUOTE][b]you mentioned, it's coming more to genuine "faith". Faith, I feel, is a man-made, non-sensical concept... you essentially believe because you want to believe it. Some people can do that, I can't.[/QUOTE][/b]Another doctrine is that faith starts very small,that by essentially only wanting to believe and looking with an open mind. The Spirit testifies that it is true. [QUOTE][b]My fear is that people fool themselves into thinking they feel the Holy Spirit.[/QUOTE][/b]Hate to be so blunt, but it is easy to say that until you feel it yourself. [QUOTE][b]I have never felt it, even when I was growing up in grade school and attending my best friend's church and having fun studying the Bible with other kids my age.[/QUOTE][/b]I have been to churches and not felt it. I had to shop around.
I think most congregations are occasionally visited by the Spirit but it is not there constantly.

Nice secular saracasm there gene, that's what happens when you don't have the Holy Spirit.Anyways, gone on holidays, back next week.