Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?

What could be cheaper than not paying your bills?

what could be more humble than surrender? Are you suggesting that surrender implies avoidance of responsibility and mission in life?Besides...the message is not cheap. It was paid for through blood sacrifice. And Grace does not give us a right to be lazy. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Isaac.Have you ever read the Bible?

Yup. A soldier who surrenders is avoding his responsibility to fight the enemy. Mind you, a temporary surrender may be the best strategy but living on to fight another day is the responsible thing to do. But you're not the one paying it. It's cheap for you. She does if she lets you get by on faith alone.

Luke 9:

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1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

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2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

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3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

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4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.

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5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

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6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

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If the disciples were preaching the gospel before Jesus had been crucified, then his crucifixion could not be a part of the gospel.

Abraham and Isaac?Genesis 17-24 or so? what about him?Abrahams faith was credited as righteousness.. his works were obedience.Abraham was pardoned due to Gods grace, however...not through his works. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Sheesh.Isaac Phat, think. Or even read what the Bible says.

Do you even understand what you are arguing? Abraham earned a favored place with God. Even dispensationalists generally acknowledge that the Abraham is a classic straight up example of the 'old style' covenant that they don't have to go through anymore.Abraham demonstrated the depth of his faith by being willing to sacrifice Isaac. That would be examples of action and not words. Prior to that he had a reputation as a righteous man. I believe you are going to have difficulty making your grace case this way.Abraham's descendants got free passes for doing all kinds of wrong minded stuff because God had made a covenant with Abraham and kept his word. There are other examples of descendant's being blessed because their parents were good folks despite the child being something of a dunderhead. Sampson comes to mind.But again, we are talking about people using up earned credits. And we can just as easily talk about kinds suffering the consequences of their parents bad actions.

So grace is kinda like a suspended threat? God could screw you over if He felt like it but out of the goodness of His heart He won't?

In my opinion, Grace is the realization that humans just don't have the proper hard wiring internally to survive as a species without Gods help. Look at the history books.

the US military-industrial complex...showing no signs of letting up.

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the continuation of wars and poverty...and disease...super viruses and antibiotic resistant bacteria....do you really think that nations will get along or give an inch?

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I could go on. Yes, ringo...we need grace. Trying to do our best is noble and necessary, but it wont be enough.

What does the evidence show Phat?Are there fewer and smaller wars than in the past?Except for the US are not most nations solving their differences through negotiation?

But we do survive. If we didn't, there wouldn't be any history books. You didn't respond to my question at all. Let's try again:

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So grace is kinda like a suspended threat? God could screw you over if He felt like it but out of the goodness of His heart He won't?

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There are laws. Natural laws and spiritual laws. If you get too close to fire, you burn up. Thats a natural law. If you fail to meet product specifications, you get removed from the lineage. Thats a spiritual law. Grace is the gift of insurance from having your policy canceled, as per law.

What you wrote means absolutely nothing. Seriously, it is just words strung together to sound impressive, but in actuality imparts no information whatsoever.Do you really think anyone understands anything from that string of words?

I might understand what he was getting at. Let me get out my Phat-to-English dictionary and give it a try

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There are laws. Natural laws and spiritual laws. If you get too close to fire, you burn up. Thats a natural law.

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Straight forward enough.

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If you fail to meet product specifications, you get removed from the lineage. Thats a spiritual law.

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As differentiated from natural law (physics) there are other "laws" (read consequences) for other actions in life.A tenuous free-association like connection from this to "spiritual law" is made.

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Grace is the gift of insurance (everlasting life) from having your policy canceled, as per law. (death)

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As for the logical flow from one sentence to the next ... it's really loose and goes like this:Your physical body is gonna die. But your spirit doesn't have to. Grace is the "don't be dead" card.To get from one to the other is more free association brainstorming kinda stuff where the logic is quite loose. Like real loose. The analogy of "gift of insurance" for everlasting life and "policy cancelled" for death is not internally consistent but since both deal with "insurance" free association sans logic makes at least some connection even if it's nonsensical. But that's OK. He knows what he meant and that's good enough.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.