What came before 'in the beginning' of Genesis?

Written in english in several different versions of scripture, Genesis 1:1-3 seems to talk about the beginning. Text between verses 1 and 2 and verses 2 and 3 seems to flow smoothly in English. However, there is a bit of a difference in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages.
Throughout the ages people have come up with "The Gap Theory" and other such theories, after examining what is written in the original languages, because they felt that there is something more to Genesis 1:1-3.The question that I have about this section in Genesis is:1.) Is the beginning accurately displayed in English from the ancient Paleo Hebrew and Aramaic for Genesis 1:1-3? Is there more to what is written in Genesis 1:1-3?With ahavah in His Service,
SamuelOpening post copied here by AdminNosyThis message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-21-2004 04:12 PM

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Strive for the Mastery!

I think that you have several partially or completely independent topics there.I think you should pick at most two of them to start with. Give a bit more detail and then we can consider it as a new topic.

Can we go with #1 and #2 first?

Do they need to be together? One test that you might apply to see if you have a coherent topic is to form a clear topic title.I can make two titles for items 1 and 2:1) What was before "in the beginning" of genesis?and2) Were Adam and Eve the first humans?But it is hard to write a title that covers them both which suggests to me that there is too much there.How about going with number 1 and see how it unfolds?

That's a very reasonable statement. Yes, I agree with you 100%, let's just do #1 for right now and see how it goes. Just make the title 'What was before "in the beginning" of Genesis."

Please edit the opening post the way you want it. Then we can move itThis message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-21-2004 03:20 AM

(this whole post copied to replace the OP)

Written in english in several different versions of scripture, Genesis 1:1-3 seems to talk about the beginning. Text between verses 1 and 2 and verses 2 and 3 seems to flow smoothly in English. However, there is a bit of a difference in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages.Throughout the ages people have come up with "The Gap Theory" and other such theories, after examining what is written in the original languages, because they felt that there is something more to Genesis 1:1-3.The question that I have about this section in Genesis is:1.) Is the beginning accurately displayed in English from the ancient Paleo Hebrew and Aramaic for Genesis 1:1-3? Is there more to what is written in Genesis 1:1-3?With ahavah in His Service,
Samuel ** ahavah = love **This message has been edited by Under_His_Tallit, 05-21-2004 02:54 PMThis message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-21-2004 04:14 PM

Do not post until the move is complete.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Under His Tallit, Great Subject!!
One thing that I am certain of is that the English language lacks the ability to render the appropriate translation from the Ancient Paleo Hebrew text or the Aramaic for that matter. I am curious,can you read both languages? The Hebrew language fascinates me because each letter has many meanings and when you form them into words it is almost a story in itself. In those beginning verses of Genesis,it says that the Earth was devoid of all life,formless and empty.I would think that if there was anything more to that Yahweh would have revealed it. That is only my opinion.As far as the rest of our galaxy, who knows. One day we may get the answer.
Jessie

I know a little bit of Hebrew, I can read Hebrew without the vowel pointing however, not always can I understand what it means or what it says. There is a big difference in reading and understanding what you read in Hebrew. I have began learning Hebrew, and according to the understanding that I have obtained, in some scripture versions English is VERY CLOSE to the original text and in other places it's not.Genesis 1:1-2 happens to be one of those places, verse 3 is very accurate. Later, because the sabbath day is about to begin, maybe on the First day I will make an image of what scripture says in Genesis 1:1-3 in Hebrew and give a phonetic pronunciation of it. Then give a translation from Hebrew to English as close as possible.Also, I think its important to retain the plural and singular forms of Hebrew, so I will do my best in those areas even if it sounds tacky or choppy, to retain the plural.For example (this is the phonetic pronunciation of Genesis 1:1):Tanakh with Strongs #'s included:Bereshit(H7225) (be re sheet) bara(H1254) Elohim(H430) (Ale o heem) `eth(H853) ha-shomayim(H8064) v'eth(H853) ha-eretz(H776).KJV with Strongs #'s included:Gen 1:1 In the beginning7225 God430 created1254 (853) the heaven8064 and the earth.776The first thing you should realize right away `eth isn't represented in English, it does however make a sign of direct object. In fact, if you notice the KJV +, from E-Sword, doesn't include the 2nd 'eth (H853) to verify that there are two and not only one. Using a hard-back concordance, searching by hand, you would have never known about either of the two `eth. Using a scripture program, like E-Sword, you would have seen only one `eth, nor would you realize that there were two `eth using scripture programs, unless you investigated the original Hebrew. That is what we're going to do to bring our understanding of creation to a more powerful and more correct disposition, demonstrating that the foundation of the earth is millions, maybe even billions of years old, while demonstrating that the FACE of the earth, which is likened to an article of clothing in Tehillim (Psalms), is a bit older than 6,000 while the Adamic Race itself is only 5994 years old.Having this in mind, seeing that the KJV translators already messed up the very first verse of scripture ... how much will you trust the KJV with your understanding of heavenly things? How much will you trust the KJV with your salvation?Interesting Fact: Hebrew scholars misunderstanding of the word Elohim, and the following word `eth, gives them the erratic doctrine of the "Trinity," which, in reality, is a false doctrine. In the Hebrew Mindset that YHWH gave Mosheh, Elohim was used to represent all the greatness of His majesty, since there isn't a singular word to describe the greatness of His majesty, and never to represent YHWH as more than Echad (one in himself as YeshaYahu prophecied) not shalosh (three) or shenayim (two). YHWH being more than one is actually foreign to the Hebrew mindest and comes from the pagan mindset of polytheism!Next thing you should realize, Genesis 1:1 English translation actualy MOVES the Hebrew words around and translates them into what sounds best in English, however I think its best to keep it as close to the Hebrew as possible, regardless if its choppy or not.So the actual translation of the above would be something similar to the following:In the beginning created Elohim the heavens and the earth.Notice: Heavens is actually pluaral in the Hebrew and singular in the KJV above. Mostly all plural words in Hebrew end with a Yod and a Mem, so if you see a Yod and a Mem in a Hebrew word you know that it's plural.Please note that this is only a taste of what I want to talk about in Genesis 1:1-3, and we will go into deep discussion about those verses. In the mean time, I'm going to finish getting ready for Shabbat and I will be back sunday to answer posts people have put up.This message has been edited by Under_His_Tallit, 05-21-2004 05:44 PM

The Hebrew reads
In Beginning created ALHYM...It does not read In THE beginning...
So previous beginnings or previous universes aren't necessarily ruled out.
Isaiah 45:18 states that he did not create the earth in Tohu (vain) which is exactly what Genesis 2 says the state of the earth was...seems like a contradiction unless there is more to it...exactly what that is, I don't know
I know people have the gap theory and other theory's but I don't like reading stuff into it that's not there. Plus, there is the Hebrew letter vav between verses 1 and 2. Vav's are used to connect ideas that are talking about the same thing. The vav is translated "and" in the english version. The connecting or hooking of verses 1 and 2 do not support the idea of there being a gap between verse 1 and 2. Wished I could tell you more but I'm clueless.
About the word "heavens" being plural...I do not think that's necessarily true. What is the singular form of heaven OR water if that is true?

Please note: This is from the Hebrew Tanakh, all I did was add the verse # under the original translation. This is the first picture of three for the first three verses. I will add explanation and the last phonetic pronunciation later, because I have things to do, but here are the pictures. They're only a couple of day's late, sorry for the delay.Grammar rules (works both in Paleo and Modern Hebrew):(owhel = tent :: This word will be our example for the grammar rules needed in this section)B`owhel (bet) = inside a tentV`owhel (vav) = and a tentHa`owhel (he) = the tentL`owhel (lamed) = toward a tentM`owhel (mem) = from a tent

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Phonetic Pronunciaton (as read from right to left): Bereshit (Be rey sheet/Be rey sheeth) bara Elohiym `eth ha-shamayim v`eth ha-eretzMeaning: In the beginning created Elohiym the heavens and the earth.

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Phonetic Pronunciation (as read from right to left): V'ha-eretz ha-yatah (NOT hayah) tohu v`bohu v`choshek al-paniy tehom v'Ruach Elohiym m`rachaf al-paniy ha-mayim.

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This message has been edited by Under_His_Tallit, 05-26-2004 02:38 PM

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Originally posted by banjah5

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About the word "heavens" being plural...I do not think that's necessarily true. What is the singular form of heaven OR water if that is true?

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Hello banjah5,Actually, the Hebrew term for "heavens" is neither singular nor properly plural. It is actually a special construction indicating duality. In the Hebrew this construction is used to indicate things that occur in pairs, such as ears or hands.The plural form in Hebrew is constructed with the use of hireq-yod, followed by final mem with the plural suffix being pronounced "eem". For example, the plural of mountain (הר), pronounced "har", is הרִים which is pronounced "harim" or "hareem".The dual form, in contrast, is constructed with an (accented) patah, then yod, then hireq and then final mem with the dual suffix being pronounced "ayim" (as opposed to "eem"). For example, the dual (plural) of foot (רגל) (regel), is רגלַיִם, which is pronounced "reg'layim".For reasons that are not entirely certain, some Hebrew nouns still carry a dual construct even though a specific state of duality is not apparent to the modern conception. These words include:water - מַיִםJerusalem - ירושלַיִםEgypt - מצרַיִםAnd, as mentioned:heavens - שמַיִםHope this helps some. I will be interested to follow the OP's linguistic reasoning for prior creation.Namaste'Amlodhi

Interesting topic for discussion as long as one understands and accepts the constraints that must be observed. Few people who bother to read the bible have any understanding of the original languages and, according to research I have done, even those who are extremely immersed in those languages tend to differ in opinion one from another in the correct meaning of specific phrases.As an example, the NKJV leaves little doubt as to the age of the earth or the time that has passed since the "beginning". Rotherhams' Literal Translation, on the other hand, gives the distinct impression of a cataclysmic event that occured between genesis 1:1 and genesis 1:2.If even renowned scholars remain in disagreement on the correct understanding of the genesis creation account, it is unlikely that any consensus would be arrived at in such a forum as this. Still, it makes for a fascinating discussion and opens doors to individual views. I look forward to reading the individual views expressed here.Cheers

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