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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Decisionmakers | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Supposing as Gould says, that if time was wound back, and evolution started over, that evolution would turn out differently.
What sort of events then are the decisionmakers in evolution that "choose" in effect an evolutionary course? What are the random operators on this planet that can influence reproductive units most greatly? (random here being understood as events which per definition can turn out one way or another) - randomness of wheather- randomness arising from competition among reproductive units (not competition in the Darwinist variational competition sense, since the outcome is theoretically always the same there) - nervous systems of many organisms - general randomness in everything - randomness of mutation So what are the decisionmakers on earth, besides people, and how much influence does this cloud of randomness have over reproductive units? What things are relatively certain to happen, and what things are more "chosen" from a range of options which all have varying degrees of uncertainty to happen? regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Joe Meert Member (Idle past 5711 days) Posts: 913 From: Gainesville Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Syamsu:
[B]Supposing as Gould says, that if time was wound back, and evolution started over, that evolution would turn out differently. What sort of events then are the decisionmakers in evolution that "choose" in effect an evolutionary course?[/quote] JM: The same ones that happened before. The timing and sequence might be different and thus produce different organisms.
quote: JM: Weather is not important at all. Climate is, but weather is limited in modifying populations to a significant degree.
quote: JM: ??? Makes no sense. If you have different organisms and different external forcing factors, then you will have different competition.
quote: JM: These might be different.
quote: JM: Why is EVERYTHING random? I don't get this. The fact that gravity causes an object to accelerate towards the center of mass is not random. The asteroid that hit the earth and wiped out the dinosaurs was random, but was acted upon by a non-random force. The effects of that asteroid impact on living organisms was critical to your being able to argue against evolution!
quote: JM: Yes, this is an important factor.
quote: JM: Huh? There are no 'decision makers'. Gravity did not choose that asteroid to hit Yucatan, nor did the asteroid 'choose' to enter the pull of Earth's gravity. It's relatively certain that you will cease to exist one day. If you produce offspring (naturally), then it is certain that they will be different from both you and the mother though many traits you will have in common. It is relatively certain that your offsprint will cease to exist one day and if they have children...Basically, you are asking the impossible question that goes like this: Suppose we started over, what would be here today? Can't answer it with specifics, but think about what might have happened if the asteroid missed the Earth 65 million years ago? Think about if the large Siberian traps volcanism did not occur 230 million years ago. Think about what the consequences of an extremely cold climate during the 800-580 million years ago period. Cheers Joe Meert
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
I mean when the exactsame organisms go for the exactsame resources, then that might create situations in which it's random which organism gets the resource. It would be like flipping a perfect coin.
In Darwinist variational competition the fitter always gets the resources, so there is no randomness there, or at least the theory doesn't describe in terms of randomness. Actually the movement of planets around the sun are known to be random within some limits, so I expect an asteroid to behave random as well, within limits. As far as I know you can't get away from using words such as determination or choice over options or outcomes, to describe *any* event that goes one way or another. If you would not use those words then your description would be likely just the same as descriptions of cause and effect. I am not asking what would be different, I'm asking what sort of events would decide that difference. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Actually the movement of planets around the sun are known to be random within some limits, so I expect an asteroid to behave random as well, within limits.[/QUOTE] Um, what? Cite a source, please.
quote: Different environmental pressures would favor different traits, so different evolutionary outcomes would emerge. Think selective breeding in domestic animals, except that the environment isn't "choosing". The environment just "is". [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-31-2002]
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: The emergence of traits that are beneficial within an environmentis considered to be random in the sense that mutations cannot be predicted in advance. If different mutations occur, different traits may or may notbe selected for than those seen today. quote: I think the term decision maker was interpreted as an intelligentdecision making force, rather than just a deciding factor with no in herent intelligence. The factors that would make a difference are those which are basicto the ToE ... mutations happen at random, some are selected for due to environmental pressures, some are selected against also due to environmental pressures, and some are niether selected nor de-selected because they provide no net gain or loss in fitness. Any environmental factor can affect the outcome of selection,but the material to work on is random mutation. This means that starting all over would likley produce differentoutcomes.
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
As if I hadn't realised there wasn't variation, thank you for reminding me of the totally obvious. When there is variation it would most likely work against randomness, I guess. But still they are much the same, and this similarity would theoretically give rise to random events in using resources.
That is what I was saying Darwinist variational competition is non-random, the opposite of random. About planets being random, is what someone told me on talk.origins. There are supposed to be lots of situations in which quantum theory predicts several possible outcomes, so by a quick look in the books you should find lots of reference quantum theory predicting several possible outcomes, if not with this particular example of planets. If someone made a computerprogram to simulate reproductive units, then at which points in the program is the call to the computer's random function supposed to be made? regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
I consider that randomness is an important factor in the first step of selection, which is the source of variation. Starting from gamete formation we can build a step-by-step reconstruction of variation and
selection (in sexually reproducing organisms) mutation[random-limitless] meiosis 1: crossing-over of chromosomes [random-limited] meiosis 2: reduction division, haploidy [random-limited] mate choice (sexual selection) [nonrandom] fertilization [random-limited] development [nonrandom] survival in 'normal' situations [nonrandom] survival from catastrophes [random-limitless] Maybe the model needs some more elaboration PS: it is great to see Syamsu reading Gould now
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mopsveldmuis Inactive Member |
Yes, mutations might be random without limit, but it is often fatal or detramental and it doesn't add any information to the system, but in stead leads to a loss of information. The same is true about selection - the information present in the species that don't survive is lost, but nothing is added to those that survive.
With this in mind, where does the variety come from that we see today, if we are all supposed to have a common ancestor?
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5903 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
mops...: If you're so certain about your assertions concerning mutation and information, why not start a new topic rather than derail this one?
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Mopsveldmuis, try looking at the thread 'Natural Selection Forced Complexity to Increase" in Origin of Life. Some models predicted an information increase / entropy decrease within the genome if its fate is left at the hands of natural selection.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Do you gain or loose information by finding out that
a particular direction is not the way to go? I think information is a poor analogy in the contextof evolution in any case.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5063 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I would say we could gain if we kept it all spread before us. I tend to think that the west mangaed to color between the lines and obscured some of the old reality, this readin is clearly difficult for any but me to re-tease in or out.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
If you mean that western conceptualisations are too
compartmenatalised, then I agree. It is a confining framework. Labelling something as information is broad, but to thewestern mind a label has to refer to a narrow concept. I think a distinction between information and data has beenmissed in the reasoning behind the information arguments in the context of EvC.
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