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Author | Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Al,
A nazi christian What on God's green Earth is that? Isn't 'Nazi Christian' an oxymoron, a bit like 'Creation Science'? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
But doesn't the fact that Christians are supposed to treat everyone as equal actually mean that these people were not Christians?
I would imagine that anyone who believed in their heart that Jesus conquered death at the resurrection would be incapable of mistreating others, so maybe they were not truly Christian? Not everyone who calls me LORD will enter into heaven, surely you have to walk the walk to be a Christian?
Throughout history there have been some very, very bad Christians. Shouldn't that be 'throughout history there have been some very very bad people who thought they were Christians'? I really cannot see how 'Nazi' and 'Christian' can go together. Unless the Nazi believed that they were Christians. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Evidently not.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Lam
I'd immagine that buz and his kind would disagree that hating homosexuals is the same thing as hating jews, but you get the idea. I know what you are saying, but I don't consider Buzsaw, Whatever,RiverRat, Almeyda, Desdamona, Wise, and many others here to be Christian. These people are not following the teachings of Jesus. Jesus certainly never condemned homosexual's, but he did say to treat others as you would like to be treated. He did say that when you feed and clothe someone who is in need then you you feed and clothe him, he didn't make any exceptions.
If you want to go down the path of "he's not a christian because..." you will encounter a lot of hypocritical statements by many people. There is nothing more hypocritical than someone who thinks they are a Christian. I have only met a handful of people that I think deserve the name, there are obviously many others, but I have only met a few, and I have met an awful lot of 'Christians'. Personally, I think if someone is saved they behave in a Christ-like way, I do not see the people you mentioned acting like this. But, the Bible makes up the rules for being a Christian, it also tells you what actions exclude you from being a Christian. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Back on topic then LOL, sorry Jar.
When you say 'saved' in the OP, what exactly do you mean, saved from what? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
One of the criteria you present for being saved is to 'Love God', can you tell me how an atheist or a Buddhist will ever fulfil this?
Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Thanks for the links Jar.
I think your own interpretation is excellent, even although I don't agree with it LOL. To me it seems that you are thinking along the lines that if you are a good person, help others, don't go out your way to hurt anyone, then you will be saved. Regarding the atheist who acts like this, he/she will be loving (pleasing) God by their actions even although God never enters their thoughts when they are doing the good deeds. It is a nice faith Jar, it is certainly more reasonable than mainstream Christianity and it would be great if it were True. Cheers. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Mankind.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
You are an atheist now are you?
It was you that made the statement, so how can you harmonise what a Nazi believes with what Jesus taught? Cheers. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
The gift is freely given and unconditional. Except that the Bible provides the condition of having to believe in the ressurection. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This looks very much like a condition to me. You can get into heaven on the condition that you believe that Jesus died for your sins and believe that he conquered death at the resurrection. I don't happen to believe that at all, and that is not only 'A' key belief of creedal christian churches, it is probably 'THE' key belief. Jesus may well have loved all mankind whether they were a theif, murderer, whore, homosexual, or anything else, but he still places a condition on your entry to his kingdom. Only those that believe in his ressurection, truly believe it in their hearts will go into heaven. That's really what the sheep and the goats story is about, once you truly believe in your heart that Jesus is lord and saviour, it is only then that you feed him, clothe him, and visit him in prison. Anyway, what if you didnt want to go to heaven, but you were a good and kind person, do you have a choice? Cheers. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Jar,
In particular, look at 19:21. Here, the message returns once again to behaviour, to actions, rather than simply acknowledgement or belief. I see what you are getting at, but you cannot just ignore what comes before 19:21 as if it isn’t there. ‘ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.’ This is quite explicit; it is that Jesus came into the world to save it that at least puts you on the path to salvation. The text really does say if you do not believe in Jesus as saviour of the world then you are already condemned. Which is a bit of a problem for yours truly here LOL, my opinions of Jesus over the years have ranged from Saviour to conman, to revolutionary, to phantom, but I cannot see it going back to the Saviour stance again.
Again, it seems to me to be saying that actions speak louder than words. It's saying that what you do evidences your belief, not what you say. Yes, but couldn’t it be that once you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Saviour that you feel compelled to help your fellow man and that good actions, Christ-like actions, are a natural follow on from belief in the resurrection and salvation through Jesus Christ? This is what I see, and once believed, in the New Testament. I am not saying you are incorrect and I fully respect your faith, and I am not trying to be intentionally irritating, just trying to understand your personal faith.
I do not see John 3 and Matthew 25 as being in conflict. Instead, I believe they amplify each other. Yes indeed they do, actions speak louder than words. I don’t think they conflict at all, I think the sheep know in their hearts that Jesus is Saviour of the world and their actions reflect Christ’s qualities. But the goats ‘believe’ that he is saviour and that’s all they do about it. But if they truly believed they would be doing something to help their neighbour.
I cannot imagine a loving GOD that would force anyone to live eternally. What a hell that would be. Instead, I would imagine that the individual would be given enough information to make an informed decision and that GOD would grant the individual's wish. You know this is quite similar to Pure Land Buddhism, where a being can go to a Pure Land (Heaven) and be helped to Enlightenment by the resident Bodhisattva, then once Enlightened you can make a variety of choices. But, being able to choose to extinguish your life force seems to contradict the promise of Eternal Life. I hope you have given up any ambition to become the next Pope! However, I do like your flavour of Christianity a lot more than many denominations I have heard about, but I honestly find it difficult to square it with the New Testament, this doesn’t mean you are incorrect though. Thanks for sharing your personal faith, it is very interesting. Cheers. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi
It is pretty simple Brian, your gonna burn in hell. LOL, if you only knew how many Christians have told me that!!!! Remember the guy that called me Son of Stan (sic) LOL!! Ah well, at least it will be warm, and full of familiar faces. Cheers. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Jar,
IMHO if more folk would concentrate on love and just do little things the world would be a much nicer place. But you do not need to be a Christian to do this, so we do not need to hook this solely to Christianity. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do. But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc. If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it? Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born. So, why Christianity for you? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi w,
It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous. Can you explain how a day old baby born in Sodom could be considered wicked? Cheers. Brian.
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