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Author | Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
wmscott writes: What Paul wrote, he wrote under the guiding force of the holy spirit Says who? Says Paul, of course!
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight," All scripture includes what Paul wrote, doesn't it?. How convenient for him. db
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do. But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc. If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it? Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born. So, why Christianity for you? Brian.
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6276 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear MiguelG;
[Wmscott: 2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write.] -So you're saying that God wanted people to write in Deuteronomy & Leviticus that it was ok to stone rape victims (from the city mind you), and stone disobedient children?
Yes, he did, the law code was from God. Jesus said so at, (Mark 7:10-13) "Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' . . . YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother, and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition" Jesus himself stated that the law was the word of God. (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant, and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.)
being who is supposed to have slaughtered countless innocents in a global flood and at Som & Gommorrah etc.? Jesus referred to both as acts of God and that something simular would happen in the future, as an act of God. (Luke 17:26-30) "just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot came out of Sodom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed." No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah. (2 Peter 2:5-6) "he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;" Only the 'ungodly' died in both of these executions of divine justice.
Clearly, love is of paramount importance and all other scripture must be subordinate to and interpreted through these commandments. Of course, but if you love your child, do you still discipline him? Of course you do. God's justice is balanced by his love, but the reverse is equally true. It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction" It is only possible for the meek to inherit the earth and live in peace, after the wicked have been destroyed. Notice also in the above verse that Jesus is the one who leads the angels in the destruction of the wicked. People seem to have this all pink and fuzzy lovely dovey view of God and Jesus, that they are incapable of harming anyone, even the wicked. Which is not what God's word tells us, as the above verse shows, people forget that God has four main qualities, one is love, then wisdom, justice and power. So while God is love, that is not all he is. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi w,
It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous. Can you explain how a day old baby born in Sodom could be considered wicked? Cheers. Brian.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc. Well, to be a Christian you need to believe in Jesus, his death and resurection. That much is a given. But that is not what this thread is talking about; here we're talking about salvation. Christ died for mankind. It is a gift from GOD, freely given to all. It is not just to Christians, not just to professing believers. Instead it's a gift for everyone who follows the two Great Commandments, love God and love others as you love yourself. The '... whole sin in the garden stuff' IMHO is totally misused by many Christians. Like much of the Bible, it is a parable. It is the description of what sets man apart from the other animals, the fact that we do know good from evil and so have both the responsibility and the capability to do the former. The Virgin Birth is an article of faith for Christians pertaining to the birth of Jesus. But even among Christians, I don't know of anything in the Bible that says you'd be damned if you didn't believe in it. It is a rather extraordinary claim.
If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it? Bad folk will be damned. Exactly what that means is as unknown as the first moments of the Big Bang. But I doubt it will be pleasant. It may only be a total cessation. My personal belief is that it will be a role reversal. Hitler will become a gay, Hassidic Jew in Poland during the 1930's.
Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born. I agree. And I also don't reject Buddhist teachings and practices. If you've followed many of my posts you will have noticed I strongly urge Christians and others to study Buddhism as well as the teachings of Mecius, Confucius and others.
So, why Christianity for you? Partly through accident of birth. Had I been born somewhere else it's very likely I'd be a different religion. But after many years of study covering many of the pathways to God I have found little in Christianity that conflicts with other moral systems and nothing in the others that I did not find in Christ. I do have a problem though with those Christians who preach a religion of exclusion. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Well, to be a Christian you need to believe in Jesus, his death and resurection. That much is a given. But that is not what this thread is talking about; here we're talking about salvation.
So, in your opinion, we can be saved by loving each other and NOT believing in death and resurrection of Jesus, and we go to the same place as the souls who do believe in the death and resurrection bit?
Christ died for mankind. It is a gift from GOD, freely given to all. It is not just to Christians, not just to professing believers. Instead it's a gift for everyone who follows the two Great Commandments, love God and love others as you love yourself. To me this suggests that Christ's death was meaningless. I mean if the gift of eternal life with God is acheivable by just lovng other as you love yourself, then Jesus didn't need to die? His death was pointless if there is another way to get into heaven.
The Virgin Birth is an article of faith for Christians pertaining to the birth of Jesus. But even among Christians, I don't know of anything in the Bible that says you'd be damned if you didn't believe in it. It is a rather extraordinary claim. I was referring to an extremist viewpoint that every word of the Bible is ture and if you don't believe one syllable then you shouldnt believe any. It is rare though, I'll give you that.
It may only be a total cessation. Why would this be unpleasant, it is, after all, the goal in Buddhism? Brian.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So, in your opinion, we can be saved by loving each other and NOT believing in death and resurrection of Jesus, and we go to the same place as the souls who do believe in the death and resurrection bit? Sure. That's what Jesus said IMHO.
To me this suggests that Christ's death was meaningless. I mean if the gift of eternal life with God is acheivable by just lovng other as you love yourself, then Jesus didn't need to die? His death was pointless if there is another way to get into heaven. I don't know if we'll have time enough in this thread to work through all of that but let's give it a try. Jesus' life and death is a message. It is GOD explaining things to humans. It is not the fact that Jesus died, it is not the fact of Jesus birth that are the key. They are part of the message. GOD forgives and loves. The message was played out in terms and actions of the period, as something those contemporary would understand. Death, even crucifixion, was not unusual. In fact, on the same day, at least two others were crucified. Resurrection though WAS unusual. It is the message of hope, of continuance, of salvation.
Why would this be unpleasant, it is, after all, the goal in Buddhism? We were talking about total cessation. By definition it would not be unpleasant, but it would by definition also not be pleasant. Cessation is simply the state of "Not Being". Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I have reread the past 25 or so posts to gather a synopsis of what it is that we are debating.
The Topic starter, again, is Who can be saved? A Christian perspective. Jar writes: Well, I can't fault your logic! Jesus also says that everything hangs on the two commandments of Loving God..(Actions, remember. not words.) Loving our neighbor..(You correctly see that action is required here, also.) I agree with everything that you say...your heart is right and your logic is Texas simple. The Atheist would, like Abraham, have their Faith that they were doing what is right and true be counted as Righteousness. It is hard to deny Jesus in your heart if you are helping others. Why? Because you are living as Christ lived. Technically, the scriptures are right just as in technically Jesus should not have healed on the sabbath. If , however, your sheep gets washed in the ditch by a Tsunami, what good "atheist" farmer would not pull them out?
In addition, the condemnation in John 3:18 is explained fully in the next few lines. It is not a condemnation to hell or anything of the sort. Rather it is yet another affirmation of the constant theme of Jesus that you will be judged on what you do, not what you say.No, it's not atheists that need to worry about salvation (of course they don't anyway) but rather Christians. It's the believers that will be spending their time in Hell, not the non-believers. It's folk like Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Larson, Bobby Tilton and Paul Crouch that will be lined up with the goats while the atheists walk in the front door. Oh I believe Jesus words. Too bad so many Christians don't read them.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Thanks for clarification.
One other point. You say there are two commandments, love god, love others. How can an atheist love God? Brian.
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MiguelG Member (Idle past 2004 days) Posts: 63 From: Australia Joined: |
Dear WmScott,
Wmscott: Yes, he did, the law code was from God. Jesus himself stated that the law was the word of God. Actually, in Matthew 22:36-40, Christ states that all the law and all the prophets teachings derived from His teaching of Love. Explain please, how such laws as discussed here are in accordance with a teaching of love? Wmscott: (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant Because she was raped in the city? So by this we are to conclude that all rape victims in the greater metropolitan areas of New York & Sydney should then be stoned since they were willing participants by your understanding of scripture? Wmscott: and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.) Old enough?So a 13 year old could be stoned? Maybe a 12 year old? Should we just stone all drunkards? Wmscott: No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah. (2 Peter 2:5-6) "he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;" Only the 'ungodly' died in both of these executions of divine justice. Perhaps you could explain then how a baby, toddler or young child might be ‘ungodly’ or not innocent? Wmscott: but if you love your child, do you still discipline him? Discipline is a word that covers a multitude of sins.How much punishment would you say is fair for a disobedient child? Suffice it to say that I would not stone, incinerate or in any way greviously harm, mutilate or slay my own offspring — or indeed any child. But maybe you could show me where Christ is depicted as doing the same to children? Wmscott: Of course you do. God's justice is balanced by his love, but the reverse is equally true. It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous. Ah yes, spare the rod and spoil the child?It is interesting, is it not, that this antiquated justification for physical abuse of children is no longer tolerated today. Wmscott: It is only possible for the meek to inherit the earth and live in peace, after the wicked have been destroyed. And you believe that the Bible sanctions humans to ‘chastise’ the wicked? Wmscott: People seem to have this all pink and fuzzy lovely dovey view of God and Jesus, that they are incapable of harming anyone, even the wicked. Which is not what God's word tells us, as the above verse shows, people forget that God has four main qualities, one is love, then wisdom, justice and power. So while God is love, that is not all he is. The picture you paint of Christ is your own and not supported by the words and deeds of Christ Himself. You seem to think that a Christ of Love is somehow effete and impotent? How interesting. I contend that His courage and His maintenance of peace & love in the face of torture and death was what made His teachings one of the most powerful in human history. Cheers and God bless
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How can an atheist love God? Great question and I think I've covered it in this thread. One place was in Message 25. Later I got into a longer discussion with Phatboy beginning at Message 31. Look those over and if you have other questions, maybe we should start another thread on whether or not atheists can love GOD. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hi, Brian! You ask:
Brian writes:
Pretend that you were a Theist answering this question. How can an atheist love God?I'll be the atheist. ME: How can I love something that does not exist? YOU: Well, How do you express love? What is your ideal world governed by? ME: Well, it is quite obvious that the world is far from perfect, and it appears that the fundamentalist religious mindset coupled with a love for money and power is causing most of the trouble. YOU: What should we love besides money and power? .............well?
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MiguelG Member (Idle past 2004 days) Posts: 63 From: Australia Joined: |
Hi Brian,
Anybody, an Atheist included, can still love God. How? Simply by loving his/her fellow man. John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. You don't have to believe in His deity or what not - the simple exercise of selfless love is enough. It is both a simple philosophy to understand, and yet an extremely difficult one to fulfill. But I believe it is the effort we make in attempting it that makes a difference.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
YOU: What should we love besides money and power? .............well? Well? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4987 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi Miguel,
But, there is always a but. I love my fellow humans, Jar, Phat, Percy, Charles, Paul, Asgara, Ned, Cory, Buzz, Mike, Holmes, Lam, Frog, all these guys and more. However, I think that the God of the Bible is a gutless, horrendous, evil, barbarian, so I do not love God, even by proxy. Cheers. Brian.
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