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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 406 of 457 (812008)
06-14-2017 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
06-14-2017 5:49 AM


and the answer is????????
Phat writes:

Does not the idea that Jesus is the way to God allow us amoebas to glimpse insight into a Being far superior to ourselves?

Not in anyway I can see. Here is an opportunity to provided the reasoning and support for that assertion. What does Jesus is the way to God even mean?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 5:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 12:30 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 407 of 457 (812041)
06-14-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by jar
06-14-2017 7:06 AM


Re: and the answer is????????
jar writes:

Here is an opportunity to provided the reasoning and support for that assertion. What does Jesus is the way to God even mean?

If we agree that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is unknowable due to the vast difference between the characteristics of such a Deity and humans, traditional dogma asserts that Jesus provided a bridge or an intermediary.
The franchise offers a ready-made explanation: Jesus Is The Only Way

Several questions may arise:

  • Why do I need to "get" to GOD?
  • How can a human prophet offer a bridge?
    You have mentioned before that the GOD you worship is far bigger than what most dogma describes. Why you may ask, does humanity need to foreknowingly exist with a desperate need for GOD?

    And to be fair, you alone are the only one of the many Christians I have encountered who never seems to understand what it means to have a way to God....despite clear scriptures explaining the drill.

    In the same way, I cannot understand the whole idea of a GOD who is "complete" and Who is forever unknowable.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 406 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 7:06 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 408 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 2:51 PM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 408 of 457 (812060)
    06-14-2017 2:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 407 by Phat
    06-14-2017 12:30 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Yet nowhere in there did you offer any response or reasoned support for your assertions or explain what Jesus is the way to God even means.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 407 by Phat, posted 06-14-2017 12:30 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 409 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 3:05 PM jar has responded
     Message 416 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:16 AM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 25606
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 409 of 457 (812067)
    06-14-2017 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 408 by jar
    06-14-2017 2:51 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    It means that if you don't believe He is God the Son incarnate who died for your sins you have no way to God.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 408 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 2:51 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 410 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 3:47 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 410 of 457 (812078)
    06-14-2017 3:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 409 by Faith
    06-14-2017 3:05 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Faith writes:

    It means that if you don't believe He is God the Son incarnate who died for your sins you have no way to God.

    Yet the Bible has Jesus saying that is simply bullshit and a sure way to damnation.

    For your sake I hope that Jesus is simply fun'in folk.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 409 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 3:05 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 411 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 7:58 PM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 25606
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 411 of 457 (812094)
    06-14-2017 7:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 410 by jar
    06-14-2017 3:47 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Faith writes:
    It means that if you don't believe He is God the Son incarnate who died for your sins you have no way to God.

    Yet the Bible has Jesus saying that is simply bullshit and a sure way to damnation. For your sake I hope that Jesus is simply fun'in folk.

    I note that you don't quote Him. Why is that?

    He's the one who said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me."

    Matthew 1:21: King James Bible

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    His name means "Savior."

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Etc etc etc

    It is you who deny the truth, not I.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 410 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 3:47 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 412 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 8:10 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 412 of 457 (812096)
    06-14-2017 8:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 411 by Faith
    06-14-2017 7:58 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    LOL

    Faith I have quoted it many times and it is certainly not an editorial insert into John but rather Matthew 25, the Sheep and Goats (and the goats will all be Christians).

    In fact over the decades I've even discussed that passage with you. But to make you happy, here it is yet again:

    Matthew 25 writes:

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    This is reported as Jesus speaking directly, not the editorial ambiguity found in the revisionist Gospel of John.

    Remember Faith, many of us here have actually read the Bible, not just what the Apologists make up.

    And there are other similar passages I have posted and commented on and if you really want to learn we can go over them again.

    In fact Faith, had you actually read this thread you would have noticed that in Message 7, the seventh post in this thread, I quoted the same verse and pointed out that according to Jesus there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious involved in the question of who will be saved. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 411 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 7:58 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 413 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 8:14 PM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 25606
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 413 of 457 (812098)
    06-14-2017 8:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 412 by jar
    06-14-2017 8:10 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    There is absolutely nothing in your post that contradicts what I said.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 412 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 8:10 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 414 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 8:15 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 414 of 457 (812099)
    06-14-2017 8:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 413 by Faith
    06-14-2017 8:14 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Fine then Faith. Keep on down your path.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 413 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 8:14 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 415 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 8:17 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 25606
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 415 of 457 (812102)
    06-14-2017 8:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 414 by jar
    06-14-2017 8:15 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    I shall and so will you.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 414 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 8:15 PM jar has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9499
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 416 of 457 (812168)
    06-15-2017 9:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 408 by jar
    06-14-2017 2:51 PM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    jar writes:

    nowhere in there did you offer any response or reasoned support for your assertions or explain what Jesus is the way to God even means.

    You know what the apologists say it means.

    You call yourself a believer. A Cradle Creedal Christian, IIRC.

    You also claim that loving God or getting closer to Him can only be done practically by loving, feeding, and clothing your neighbor.

    Perhaps you never understand or care what "Jesus is the way to God " means because to you, doing for the least is the path commanded.

    Thus, forcing me to explain what the apologists mean simply reinforces your case .


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 408 by jar, posted 06-14-2017 2:51 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 417 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:12 AM Phat has responded
     Message 418 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 417 of 457 (812178)
    06-15-2017 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 416 by Phat
    06-15-2017 9:16 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Phat writes:

    Thus, forcing me to explain what the apologists mean simply reinforces your case .

    How?

    Are you saying that posting what you think "Jesus is the way to God " means weakens your position?

    Phat writes:

    You know what the apologists say it means.

    Actually no Phat, I am totally clueless what they say it means. I've read what they write, heard what they market, but so far it is simply word salad or bumper stickers with no meaning attached.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 416 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:16 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 419 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 12:21 AM jar has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13326
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 418 of 457 (812204)
    06-15-2017 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 416 by Phat
    06-15-2017 9:16 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Phat writes:

    You know what the apologists say it means.


    The apologists seem to say it means mouthing, "Lord! Lord!"
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 416 by Phat, posted 06-15-2017 9:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9499
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 419 of 457 (812319)
    06-16-2017 12:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 417 by jar
    06-15-2017 10:12 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    I've read what they write, heard what they market, but so far it is simply word salad or bumper stickers with no meaning attached.
    It makes me wonder why it is so difficult for you to glean any meaning where most people do.

    It almost sounds like hayakawa has taught you too well about the emptiness of certain catchphrases, etc.

    It also seems a bit prideful that you would charge so many people (apologists) with word salad explanations.

    To me its simple. GOD exists. Gods character is manifest in a human who then communicates with other humans.

    God uses this relationship to draw people closer to how He wants them to be....walking a fine line between preserving human free will and encouraging personal growth and change.

    Are you saying that posting what you think "Jesus is the way to God " means weakens your position?
    Basically it means to be like Jesus.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 417 by jar, posted 06-15-2017 10:12 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 420 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 6:27 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29143
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 420 of 457 (812353)
    06-16-2017 6:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 419 by Phat
    06-16-2017 12:21 AM


    Re: and the answer is????????
    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    Are you saying that posting what you think "Jesus is the way to God " means weakens your position?

    Basically it means to be like Jesus.

    We may be making some progress; thanks.

    But what does "be like Jesus" mean? Other folk in this very thread say what is necessary is to believe Jesus died to save them; "a Get Outta Hell Free card" in effect. Is that what you mean by "be like Jesus"?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 419 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 12:21 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 421 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 8:45 AM jar has responded

      
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