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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 421 of 457 (812368)
06-16-2017 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by jar
06-16-2017 6:27 AM


Re: and the answer is????????
jar,addressing Faith writes:

And when you read that,(Matthew 25) there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.

I dont think that God could care less about who believes in Him or not...but I agree that it would likely NOT become a deal breaker.
jar writes:

Other folk in this very thread say what is necessary is to believe Jesus died to save them; "a Get Outta Hell Free card" in effect. Is that what you mean by "be like Jesus"?

Not entirely. I agree with you in that Christianity (or being like Jesus) involves doing and not simply believing. I disagree that belief is unimportant, but I'm not sure why I cling to that belief apart from the fact that it was always emphasized in my earlier learning.

One thing I will say--again--about Matthew 25:

Matthew 25 writes:

Matt 25:31-33

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. (...)Matt 25:41-46
1 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Just as you say that you cannot imagine a God who cares whether or not we believe in Her, I cannot imagine a God who would condemn any group of people to eternal punishment....no matter what they do or don't do.

I try and feed people. Cloth them. Volunteer where I can. I likely don't do enough of it...but what standard does God expect?

I realize it makes little sense to skate off with a free pass, but keep in mind that another parable had workers who only worked an hour getting as much compensation as those who worked all day.

To me, eternal punishment is extreme even for satan.

(or Hitler...take your pick)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 6:27 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 424 by jar, posted 06-16-2017 9:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 422 of 457 (812369)
06-16-2017 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Phat
06-16-2017 8:45 AM


Salvation is far more than a free pass
This idea of a "free pass" so completely misses the point. Being saved means being changed, changed into a spiritual being capable of doing good works in the right spirit.

Ephesians 2:10:

Ephesians 2:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jesus had to die in our place to pay for our deserved eternity in Hell so that we could be changed in these ways. There was no other way for that to be accomplished. Any righteous good deeds we do without salvation through Christ amount to nothing in God's eyes:

Isaiah 64:6 writes:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Good deeds that God recognizes are those He commissions us to do through the Holy Spirit, which cannot be done in our mere fallen flesh.

Death entered as a consequence of the Fall, and we lost contact with God because of the disobedience that brought about the Fall, and the Fall had to be corrected before any human being could recover the fellowship Adam and Eve had had with God before they disobeyed. Believing in Christ's death opens us to receiving the Holy Spirit through whom we have spiritual powers of obedience and love of God we don't possess in our natural fallen state. This is no "get out of jail free" card, this is a total transformation that will ultimately fit us for an entirely new life in communication with God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 8:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 9:05 AM Faith has responded
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 06-16-2017 12:50 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 427 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 3:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 423 of 457 (812371)
06-16-2017 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
06-16-2017 8:58 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
I agree with you that there is a transformation involved. Our critics would likely assert, however, that if people actually can and do get saved...and are thus transformed...where is the evidence of such transformation?

The very responses and behaviors that you or I exhibit in these debates are indictments for or against any alleged transformation that we claim to have received.

Look at the established church in general. What evidence is there for wholesale transformation? We have Christians who still believe in US Nationalism as a God given right. WWJD? How would Jesus fit in with todays culture?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 9:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 424 of 457 (812373)
06-16-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Phat
06-16-2017 8:45 AM


Re: and the answer is????????
Phat writes:

I realize it makes little sense to skate off with a free pass, but keep in mind that another parable had workers who only worked an hour getting as much compensation as those who worked all day.

To me, eternal punishment is extreme even for satan.

But it was not extreme to the folk writing the dialog for the Jesus character in the story.

But the two parables actually have much in common.

The issue is not how much you do, or even what you do, but rather why you do it. Works don't buy you passage but not doing works and doing works for the wrong reason can condemn you according to the story.

The Goats were all believers, all followers, all people who would do anything for Jesus. Jesus tells them, "Sorry Charlie but you just didn't get it."


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 8:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 425 of 457 (812377)
06-16-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Phat
06-16-2017 9:05 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
You are right up to a point, but only up to a point. EvC is quite a test and I fail it quite a bit. The flesh remains powerful. Getting angry at personal attacks is wrong.

But God doesn't want us to tolerate attacks on Him; that only encourages unbelievers in the wrong direction.

2 Chronicles 19:2

And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Jehoshaphat had been helping Ahab who with his wife Jezebel honored the prophets of Baal and denied the God of Israel. The above passage says God's wrath has come against Jehoshaphat for that. Christians these days often make the mistake of thinking that loving our enemies means loving God's enemies, but that is very wrong and dangerous. Of course we are to treat everyone with kindness and concern for their basic wellbeing, but respecting their blasphemies and treating their sins as not sins is not loving them.

Tolerating such denigrating falsehoods as the idea that Paul or other Christians "market" Christianity is not a good thing in God's eyes, nor is tolerance shown for things God clearly condemns in the Bible, such as homosexual acts. Loving the homosexual doesn't mean pretending sin is not sin. Also we should be kind to Muslims personally, but treating their belief as equal to our own is a big mistake and an offense to God. Islam hates Christ, says God has no Son etc., and advocates killing Christians, yet there are Christians who are willing to turn their churches over to the practices of Islam. This shows extreme hatred of God and brings judgment on the nation.

As for US nationalism, I don't think that's the best way to understand the conservative political trend of Christians: the point is that conservatism supports Christian values and liberalism these days does not, though decades ago perhaps it did.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 9:05 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 426 of 457 (812434)
06-16-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
06-16-2017 8:58 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

Being saved means being changed, changed into a spiritual being capable of doing good works in the right spirit.


I shudder to think what some people must have been like before they changed. (Not pointing any fingers but....)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 427 of 457 (812508)
06-17-2017 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
06-16-2017 8:58 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

Jesus had to die in our place to pay for our deserved eternity in Hell so that we could be changed in these ways.

What a pile of utter stupidity. "our deserved eternity in hell" my arse. Thankfully, it's this sort of total bollox that is killing off your silly belief system. God killed his son so we could go to heaven - I mean, really.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 428 of 457 (812509)
06-17-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Tangle
06-17-2017 3:44 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Maybe you should read some of your old English Christian literature to find out what it's all about. How about Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? I think that spells out the way of salvation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 3:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 4:58 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 429 of 457 (812511)
06-17-2017 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Faith
06-17-2017 3:51 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

Maybe you should read some of your old English Christian literature to find out what it's all about. How about Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? I think that spells out the way of salvation.

I now exactly what it's all about - I had all that crap drummed into me from birth like everyone else did back then. It's all exactly what it looks like - a stack of made up nonsense exploited by powerful organisations to control a populous.

It's interesting how few people buy into it once the training from the cradle stops. It's also interesting to see how neutered the belief system has become in order to keep those few engaged. A medieval peasant wouldn't recognise it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 3:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 5:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 430 of 457 (812512)
06-17-2017 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tangle
06-17-2017 4:58 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
A medieval peasant was generally not taught the truth, being under the thumb of Rome. It took some courageous men, a lot of English among them such as Wycliffe and Tyndale, to get the truth to them, often losing their own lives as a result.

Every day people come to recognize the truth and get saved. As Jesus said "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against His church, it's going to last forever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 4:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 5:48 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 431 of 457 (812514)
06-17-2017 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Faith
06-17-2017 5:03 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

A medieval peasant was generally not taught the truth, being under the thumb of Rome.

Yeh, yeh, only Faith knows the TRUTH about biology, geology, palaeontology, molecular biology, nuclear physics, astronomy and religion. What could possibly be wrong about this? The entire edifices of both science and religion are wrong - literally billions of people, scientists and non-scientists are wrong about the work and their beliefs but Faith is right?

Even if you hadn't been proven totally wrong in all aspects, on a pure numbers game, I'm not taking those odds.

As Jesus said "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against His church, it's going to last forever.

It's crumbling around your ears Faith. You're an anachronism, your belief system is evolving itself out of existence. Another dozen generations or so and there'll be nothing recognisable left of it. But that's not your problem.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 5:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 7:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 432 of 457 (812517)
06-17-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Tangle
06-17-2017 5:48 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
A remark about the medieval peasant (who was deprived of the Bible by the Roman church) sent you on that rant? Wow. I've read a lot of Christian history and I do know a lot, not nearly as much as I wish I did but a lot, and far more than most Christians. Is that so strange?

I also know quite a bit about the UK's illustrious Christian history, which isn't so illustrious any more though there are still some solid British Christians.

Methinks you protest too much. I don't know why but your emotion about it all is rather extreme.

I know two sciences are wrong because I believe the Bible. You inflate that absurdly.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 5:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 8:01 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 433 of 457 (812519)
06-17-2017 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Faith
06-17-2017 7:45 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

I know two sciences are wrong because I believe the Bible.


Many more than two Faith. Pretty much all of them. The point about science is that it all fits together - if it didn't we'd know something was wrong. It's this co-incidence of observation that kills you every time.

You think you can invent ad hoc explanations for geological records, radioactive isotope decay, astronomical time measurement, biological evolution, fossil records, tree ring growth, ice records, shells on mountains, plate techtonics, molecular genetics, archaelogy, anthropology and on and on. You can't because they all interact with each other and also prove you wrong individually.

You inflate that absurdly.

I haven't even started. Not only do you dismiss out of hand pretty much all of known science in favour of a redicuous iron-age myth, you also dismiss all other religions and belief systems too - including the vast majority of your very OWN Christian brothers.

It's an utterly ludicrous position.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 7:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 8:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 434 of 457 (812527)
06-17-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
06-17-2017 8:01 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Well, truth is truth, it trumps all the lies fallen humanity can dream up, and that's a lot, and I've studied Christian theology enough to know what's true and what isn't.

However, you do exaggerate about science, because there is nothing in the Bible against true science, the science that gets rockets to distant planets, that invents medical systems that save lives, and even genetic engineering which I may object to ethically but not as science. And there is no objection to the many true observstions in biology or geology either, just to the wacko theory-skewed interpretations thereof.

True science is useful, but there is nothing whatever about the vaporings about the distant past, either the biological past or the geological past, that is useful at all, and that includes the wacko interpretations of otherwise factual observations in terms of evo and OE theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2017 8:01 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Boof, posted 06-18-2017 12:06 AM Faith has responded
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2017 5:10 AM Faith has responded

    
Boof
Member
Posts: 97
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 435 of 457 (812599)
06-18-2017 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Faith
06-17-2017 8:20 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
True science is useful, but there is nothing whatever about the vaporings about the distant past, either the biological past or the geological past, that is useful at all....

You do realise that the radiometric dating that you so readily hand wave away is widely used in the exploration for mineral deposits? But maybe all that copper in your computer is not useful at all...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 8:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 7:27 AM Boof has responded

  
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