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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 376 of 457 (641314)
11-18-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by GDR
11-18-2011 1:38 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
See Message 375.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by GDR, posted 11-18-2011 1:38 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 377 of 457 (641392)
11-18-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by New Cat's Eye
11-18-2011 2:15 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
CS writes:

Right, they were ministering unto the least of his people, without realizing they were doing it to Him too. So when Jesus said that they did it to Him, their reply was: "Huh? When did we do it to you?" Had they been his followers, they wouldn't have had to ask that, because they would have been around him doing those things and been all: "Yup, I remember that."

and

CS writes:

Right, and when Jesus said 'thanks a lot for not helping me', their reply was: "Huh, when didn't we help you?" His followers would have asked something like that because they would have been around him and it didn't make sense that he was claiming they didn't (because they didn't realize he was referring to the least of his people). A person who did not follow Jesus would not have asked something like that, because they would have been all: "Well, since we've just met there's no way we could have helped you yet".

This is a parable of things at the end of time. In either case they would either have helped others or ignored them but in neither case would they have understood the connection between Christ and the person they did or didn't help.

Let's try this. A fellow comes up and says thanks for the help. As he is a stranger I say to him that this is the first time I've met him and ask when did I help him. He then goes on to tell me that I helped his wife change a tire yesterday and so he didn't have to leave the hockey game he was watching on TV.

I didn't make the connection between him and his wife just as neither the sheep nor the goats made the connection between those they did or didn't help and Jesus.

Here is jar's statement.

quote:
I imagine that all of the Goats will be Christians.

IMHO there is no justification for that claim. The text tells us nothing about the beliefs of the sheep or goats as far as doctrine is concerned.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-18-2011 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 10:02 AM GDR has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1201 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 378 of 457 (641414)
11-18-2011 11:57 PM


How does any group claim to know who is saved, what saved means and how can they prove this?

I say:

Those who have no proof make sure their proof is far away.


    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 379 of 457 (641426)
11-19-2011 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by GDR
11-18-2011 8:58 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Let's try this. A fellow comes up and says thanks for the help. As he is a stranger I say to him that this is the first time I've met him and ask when did I help him. He then goes on to tell me that I helped his wife change a tire yesterday and so he didn't have to leave the hockey game he was watching on TV.

I didn't make the connection between him and his wife just as neither the sheep nor the goats made the connection between those they did or didn't help and Jesus.

Not making the connection is only part of it. The other, more important to the point, part of it is how you would respond to the person. In this case, you said "when did I help him" because he was a stranger. This is how the sheep responded. A follower of Christ wouldn't respond that way because he was no stranger and they presumably had helped him.

Now, Let's try this. A fellow good friend comes up and says thanks for the help never helping. As he is a fellow good friend I say to him that this is the first time I've met him we're together often and ask when did I NOT help him. He then goes on to tell me that I didn't help his wife change a tire yesterday.

This is how the goats responded. It makes them look like they must have been a good friend of Jesus' when they question about when they did not help. A stranger wouldn't question that.

Here is jar's statement.

quote:
I imagine that all of the Goats will be Christians.

IMHO there is no justification for that claim.

It is consistant with the story, but I think he's extrapolated a little to far. The crowd as a whole doesn't speak for every individual, and there could be non-christians in there kicking dirt and keeping their mouths shut.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by GDR, posted 11-18-2011 8:58 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 11:41 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 380 of 457 (641435)
11-19-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2011 10:02 AM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Hi CS

But when you go back to the beginning in Matthew 25 it says:

quote:
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats ;33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Everyone is there including all Christians and all non-Christians. They are divided into the two groups based on how they responded to those in need. Jar is suggesting he knows who is going to be in each group based on whether or not they are Christian. It just isn't in this passage as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that we can know Jesus but it isn't the same as knowing my wife for example. I suggest that for at least the majority of Christians they would be surprised to have Jesus tell them that when they helped the homeless that it was Him they were helping. A Christian might understand the concept but I don't think we think of it that directly.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 11:52 AM GDR has responded
 Message 383 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:26 PM GDR has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 381 of 457 (641437)
11-19-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by GDR
11-19-2011 11:41 AM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
Everyone is there including all Christians and all non-Christians. They are divided into the two groups based on how they responded to those in need. Jar is suggesting he knows who is going to be in each group based on whether or not they are Christian.

No, you've misunderstood. The suggestion is to know what kind of people are going to be in the group, based on whether they are sheep of goats.

All goats being christian does not imply all christians being goats. There can still be some christians who are sheep even if all the goats are christians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 11:41 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9764
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 382 of 457 (641438)
11-19-2011 12:09 PM


Phats Summation
This is all a matter of belief. I maintain that God saves based on His grace and nothing more. This whole idea of following some code of honor is a doctrine from hell. Not to say we shouldn't try and do our best...but we fall short.

All we can do is try again the next day and repent if we feel convicted.


  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 383 of 457 (641439)
11-19-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by GDR
11-19-2011 11:41 AM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
GDR writes:

Jar is suggesting he knows who is going to be in each group based on whether or not they are Christian.

Not at all. The division is based on individual behavior.

What I am saying is that IMHO most Christians simply don't get Jesus message at all. You even support that concept when you post "I suggest that for at least the majority of Christians they would be surprised to have Jesus tell them that when they helped the homeless that it was Him they were helping. A Christian might understand the concept but I don't think we think of it that directly."

The Goats in the story are shocked. The people that heard the Good Samaritan story are shocked. The elders in the synagogue in Nazareth that heard Jesus preach are shocked.

The point in all three stories is that no one has a clue who will be saved, and the judgement will be based on how you behaved, not what club you are a member of, not whether or not you are a follower of Jesus or even a follower of Yahweh.

As my Mommy used to say, "It ain't what you say that counts, it's what you do."

It really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 11:41 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 12:31 PM jar has responded
 Message 388 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 12:47 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9764
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 384 of 457 (641441)
11-19-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by jar
11-19-2011 12:26 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:

The point in all three stories is that no one has a clue who will be saved, and the judgement will be based on how you behaved, not what club you are a member of, not whether or not you are a follower of Jesus or even a follower of Yahweh.

Any God that judges me on how I behave is unworthy of my worship, since it was He who set my behavior up to begin with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 385 of 457 (641442)
11-19-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2011 11:52 AM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
CS writes:

No, you've misunderstood. The suggestion is to know what kind of people are going to be in the group, based on whether they are sheep of goats.

All goats being christian does not imply all christians being goats. There can still be some christians who are sheep even if all the goats are christians.

But the passage says "all nations". It includes everyone. If all goats are Christians then that requires all non-Christains to be sheep. It just isn't there.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:40 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 389 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 2:28 PM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 386 of 457 (641444)
11-19-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by GDR
11-19-2011 12:32 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
I imagine that almost all non-Christians will be Sheep, though I'm sure there will be a few that are also Goats.

AbE:

In the story though, all the Goats are followers of Jesus.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 12:32 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 387 of 457 (641445)
11-19-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Phat
11-19-2011 12:31 PM


delegating guilt
It's easy to delegate your guilt to someone else, isn't it?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 12:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 388 of 457 (641446)
11-19-2011 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by jar
11-19-2011 12:26 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
jar writes:

Not at all. The division is based on individual behavior.

What I am saying is that IMHO most Christians simply don't get Jesus message at all. You even support that concept when you post "I suggest that for at least the majority of Christians they would be surprised to have Jesus tell them that when they helped the homeless that it was Him they were helping. A Christian might understand the concept but I don't think we think of it that directly."

The Goats in the story are shocked. The people that heard the Good Samaritan story are shocked. The elders in the synagogue in Nazareth that heard Jesus preach are shocked.

The point in all three stories is that no one has a clue who will be saved, and the judgement will be based on how you behaved, not what club you are a member of, not whether or not you are a follower of Jesus or even a follower of Yahweh.

As my Mommy used to say, "It ain't what you say that counts, it's what you do."

It really is that simple.

To a large degree I agree and it is what I've been trying to say all along.

From that quote you say; "The point in all three stories is that no one has a clue who will be saved". I agree, however You have repeatedly said that you know that all the goats are Christians.

I don't think it is based on what we do. I contend it is based more on what we feel.

I was brought up surrounded by love. There are many, maybe even most that don't have that incredible gift. It is easier for me to do loving things than someone who doesn't have the benefits that I have had. Still even those who don't have that gift of a loving upbringing and behave badly, for lack of a better term, can still at their core desire goodness.

As far as being a Christian is concerned I do believe that if we truly accept Jesus/God as Lord and prayerfully commit ourselves to following His rule of love, that the Holy Spirit will gradually guide us towards a life of forgiveness, kindness, justice and love. That doesn't mean that Christians who actually have made a heart, as opposed to an intellectual, commitment to the Lord are any more loving than anyone else, they should just be more loving than they had been.

Iíll leave it to God to bring perfect justice to all in the end. Iím not about to pre-judge.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 12:26 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 389 of 457 (641457)
11-19-2011 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by GDR
11-19-2011 12:32 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
But the passage says "all nations". It includes everyone.

Yes, but then they're seperated.

quote:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


Are you taking that to mean that the nations were seperated from other nations, but the nations as a whole were kept together? And that's why you can't split up the group of christians into some being sheep and some being goats?

If all goats are Christians then that requires all non-Christains to be sheep.

Yeah, I don't particularly agree with every single goat being a christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 12:32 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 2:33 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 391 by GDR, posted 11-19-2011 4:34 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2011 5:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 390 of 457 (641459)
11-19-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2011 2:28 PM


Re: The Goats were followers of Jesus.
CS writes:

GDR writes:

If all goats are Christians then that requires all non-Christains to be sheep.

Yeah, I don't particularly agree with every single goat being a christian.

In reality that is likely, but not in the story.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2011 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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