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Author | Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Can I just say two things here? 1) That is a freakin' hilarious line, and 2) after seeing your photograph jar, it tickles me to no end that you have used the term "bling-bling pimp daddies".
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
strange, unprovoked dulpicate post deleted
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-05-2004 09:42 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The Mormons through Joseph Smith? Smith with his magic rocks and translated golden tablets that nobody but him actually claimed they saw and the fake tablets of gibberish that he "translated" which showed him to be a fraud? Gosh, jar, what are your thoughts on L. Ron Hubbard? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-05-2004 09:49 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined:
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Who...me?
(looks at you with wide-eyes)
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined:
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quote: It is because presachers are supposed to be examples of high Christian morals. Nobody has expectations that CEO's of big business to be anything but corrupt.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What about all the times God has intervened to stop things - with you being ignorant of it?[/quote]
Let's assume that this is really happeneing; that God is intervening and we don't know it. My question to you is this: What about all the times where God obviously does NOT intervene?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Doesn't work like that. He who makes the positive assertion - that an entity exists - must prove. Not he who questions that assertion. quote: That's not a positive assertion, mike. Is it a positive assertion to say, "There is no evidence that invisible pink unicorns exist."? No, a positive claim is, "Invisible pink unicorns DO exist." It is then up to this claimant to provide evidence for this positive assertion. The idea that there is no evidence for the existence of invisible pink unicorns is the default, just like it is the default to not accept that the Great Galactic Goat made the universe, that fairies live at the end of my garden, and that aliens are regularly abducting humans into their spaceships to conduct anal probes. I swear, this must be the 10th time this has been explained to you. You are smarter than this.
quote: Really? Someone out there has a cure for AIDS, let's say, and they are actually keeping it to themselves?
quote: The problem is, mike, that you don't want to count the starving people at all in your assessment of the situation.
quote: That's a vague promise regarding the afterlife. Why doesn't God reverse their life of hunger and suffering NOW? Why must they live an entire life of hunger and disease when God could fix is instantly?
quote: Which miracles were those? Please be specific; names, dates, etc..
quote: That may be true, but it does erase the notion that God cares about human suffering. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-09-2004 07:51 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
A nazi christian quote: No, it's not really an oxymoron, unfortunately. Randall Terry is a Christian terrorist.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian." You are using your personal, subjective standard to qualify some and not others, but there are many people who would disagree with you. Are the Christians (or any people) who disagree with you regarding who are "true Christians" all wrong? What makes your definition of what a "true Christian" is correct and any different one incorrect? There is, by contrast, a very clear, universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is following the tenets of mwethodological naturalism in an investigation of nature.
quote: I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Let's assume that this is really happeneing; that God is intervening and we don't know it. My question to you is this: What about all the times where God obviously does NOT intervene? quote: Please answer the question, Mike. Remember, I told you that we could, for the sake of argument, assume that God is really intervening in the lives of people. So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?
That's a vague promise regarding the afterlife. Why doesn't God reverse their life of hunger and suffering NOW? Why must they live an entire life of hunger and disease when God could fix is instantly? quote: No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives". This includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty. There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving.
quote: But we are told in Genesis that Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge so now we know right from wrong. Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions of other starving people all over the world? It screams of injustice and unfairness to me. Do we know right from wrong now or not, and why isn't God held to at least the same standards as us humans? He is all powerful, after all, right? If he is also all-loving, why would he allow this? Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it?
Which miracles were those? Please be specific; names, dates, etc.. quote: Well, sure. You are the one making the claim, aren't you?
quote: Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles. Please enlighten me with some verifiable factsinstead of avoiding the issue/lecturing me.
That may be true, but it does erase the notion that God cares about human suffering. quote: Who has more power, humans or God? I thought that God was ALLpowerful? God could end hunger with a single thought, instantly. Why doesn't he?
quote: Actually, the writers of the Bible said that, and that kind of thing has been said many times over the centuries to keep poor people from getting pissed off enough to overthrow the rich and powerful. If you can convince people that it's good and virtuous to be poor, then you have played them, well and proper.
quote: Why should he be praised for filling your belly but not others'? Why is he ignoring the other starving millions?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Sorry, jar, mike chased me down in another thread to answer him here.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[qs]So, considering that we assume that He is intervening to save some people, what about all of the times he obviously does not intervene?[qs]
quote: Where is the evidence that he does? You are the one making the claim, mike.
quote: I'm not talking about the people who give the help to others. I am talking about the millions of starving people who don't get any help. Why doesn't God help them directly? Isn't he all-powerful?
No, by "entire life" I meant "as long as a person lives". this includes the millions of children born into poverty, disease hunger, and war who only know that life of suffering until they die of AIDS or malnutrition before reaching puberty. There are many babies who die in the womb because their mothers have diseases, or are starving. quote: What about the others, mike? What about the orphans with AIDS who die horrible, suffering deaths every single day in Africa? Why would God even put them here on earth if he is just going to make their few years incredibly miserable? Why not bring them directly to heaven?
[quote]Isn't it wrong for God to intervene to feed you but not intervene to feed millions[quote]
quote: ...and millions are starving.
Why would he give the appearance of not caring about the horrible suffering, over millenia, of many millions of people if he could do something about it? quote: Mike, is God all-powerful or not? Do humans know the difference between good and evil or not? Is God subject to the same moral rules as humans or not? Does God, being all-powerful, have a moral responsibility to use his infinite power to end suffering or not?
Indeed, I am ignorant of documented miracles. quote: I can't very well reject something that YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME ABOUT YET. So put up or shut up. You say there are documented miracles that doctors have verified. Who, what, where, when?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You are forgetting that there is no universally agreed upon standard by which one can judge if a person is a "true Christian." quote: Mike, why are there are hundreds and hundreds of different Christian denominations worldwide? It is precisely my point that very few Christians can agree on what it means to "follow the teachings of Christ". Some say you should avoid all alcohol, some say booze is fine. Some say sex is only for procreation and birth control is sinful, others say sex is for pleasure and procreation and that birth control is fine. Some say that women should be submissive to men and others say that women and men are equal. Some say that Jesus requires his followers to never kill another person, even in wartime, while others have no strong religious objection with killing in war or the death penalty. Some say that the Bible is inerrant literal history and science, and others take the bible to be a non-literal allegorical and symbolic guidebook for life. I have known several Christians who don't consider Catholics to be true Christians, and many more who do not consider Mormons to be true Christians. So, are you telling me that you are right in who is a "true Chriastian" and all those who disagree with you are wrong?
quote: And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-death penalty muderer without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a pro-death penalty murderer is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings. And so - if you truly believe in Christ, how could you be a pro-life muderer of abortion doctors without also believing you're going to hell? Because to be a pro-lifemurderer of abortion doctors is to not follow Christs peaceful teachings. There are many, many Christians who accept A, but cannot agree on B. So, my point remains. There is no objective way to say who is a "true Christian".
I really don't understand what you are saying here, sorry. quote: Yep, pretty sure.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god.
quote: He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering.
quote: Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not? Does God know the differencce between good and evil or not?
quote: Testimonials are not evidence. You have given me nothing at all that I can personally verify. A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least. I have just as much evidence for alien abductions as you have just given me for miracles. Doctors, testimonials from converts who have no reason to lie, the works! Same goes for TV psychics, faith healers, pet psychics, you name it. I've got a great bridge I can sell you, cheap!
quote: If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant? And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day? Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike? Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
quote: Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords?
quote: Naw, you are silly for ignoring your own biases.
quote: Do we know the difference between good and evil or not? Is God subject to the same moral responsibility as we are or not?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, some CHRISTIANS say that it is NOT OK to drink alcohol and other CHRISTIANS say it is fine. That means that one group of CHRISTIANS thinks the others are NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS. The DISAGREE on what it means to FOLLOW CHRIST'S TEACHINGS.
quote: Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormour disagreements about? Also, I forgot one: Some believe that toy get into heaven you just need to be saved and believe in Jesus, others believe that you have to do good works to earn a place in heaven.
quote: They do believe that they are going to heaven because they are saving innocent babies. You have decided that they are not Christians, but that is only your rule. They believe otherwise.
quote: LOL! Not quite: "People's definitions change." This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-17-2004 03:13 PM
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