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Author | Topic: why DID we evolve into humans? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
Sounds good. At some point, I will do that.
I came here looking to explore consciousness, language, behavior and neuroscience through the window of genetics and evolution. So I'm grateful for the ideas. Thanks. "Godel, Escher, Bach" shaped a lot of my thinking as well. It's also the first book where the idea of an emergent system jumped out and bit me. For that, I'm grateful. So... I'll see about opening that thread. I still feel too 'raw' on the subject to speak confidently, but then again... I don't think I'll be changing that feeling any time soon. In other words, I'll do it. Ben
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
Following up...
Well, as with most things... I'm trying to take a complex approach to something simple. Go here to make suggestions. Ben
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
I guess the only way I can think of to plumb the nature of consciousness is to study things that don't have it, or to study humans when they enter states of non-consciousness (acting on autopilot, fugue states, etc., not the unconsciousness of dreaming.) Antonio Damasio in his book THE FEELING OF WHAT HAPPENS does this. He is a neurologist and an excellent writer. He identifies core consciousness and autobiographical consciousness.
I suspect that, if you found yourself somehow transmuted into an animal, you would find yourself in something more akin to the first state than the second. Bernadette Roberts in one of her books, perhaps her third book WHAT IS SELF makes that point about sensory intelligence of animals vs. the human mode of discriminating concepts, I don't think that is what she calls it though. Buddhist and others in the east have been studying consciousness for many centuries phenomenologically. It seems you are refering to autobiographical consciousness which is an important function of homo sapiens in culture and that does seem to be based on memories and our penchant to construct stories. Language is however hightly abstract and that functioning accesses a limited but very useful part of the total brain/organism. In one sense much of the effort in the eastern traditions is to get free of the conviction that that we are the story we constructed and return to the greater organisms functioning. The idea is that this story of ourselves holds us in effect hynotized with a restricted awaresness. One use of meditation is to break this fixation and experience our being free of the concepts we have accumulated. lfen
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Language is however hightly abstract and that functioning accesses a limited but very useful part of the total brain/organism. Well, I disagree. It appears to me that, besides motor/sensory areas, linguistic processing constitutes the largest share of brain organization. I don't think there's anything limited at all about the parts of the brain devoted to language. To the contrary, the brain seems to really be for only two things - sensory/motor control, and language. Your milage may vary, though. I think most of the Eastern concepts of consciousness are quite upside-down.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Well, I disagree. It appears to me that, besides motor/sensory areas, linguistic processing constitutes the largest share of brain organization. But you do make motor/sensory the greater? Doesn't that indicate it's consciousness is greater also? lfen
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But you do make motor/sensory the greater? Doesn't that indicate it's consciousness is greater also? No, why would it? Everything that moves has sensory/motor control.
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
Talking about 'size' of brain organization is dubious to me... brain volume and surface area do not necessarily specify function. Anyway, it's funny that I just posted a link to Lieberman's "Human Language and Our Reptilian Brain"--seems relevant here.
Here's some (crude) details on the structure of the brain, and some general ideas on correlated function:
Overall, I lean to Lieberman's suggestion that some of the subcortical structures play a crucial role in language, then, to a lesser degree, the classical Broca's & Wernicke's area, and then to other non-specific areas. So, I would contend that the brain is not specialized so much for language. I would argue that association areas are semantic, feedback memory areas. I would also argue that control of behavior and the frontal lobes are a 'key' aspect of the human brain. Ben P.S. I did a fast google search to produce SOME webpage with pictures of the brain. Page not found | Department of Molecular Biology
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
This matches my thought as well. There are many studies that I think back this up as well (especially ones dealing with the practice effects on dual-task experiments).
lfen, I think you're onto something, but I think we all agree that it's fundamentally different than what crashfrog is talking about. The only thing in question is whether 'consciousness' is the proper word to affix to crash's idea, or yours. Just from the cognitive literature, 'consciousness' is used in crash's sense. Apparently 'consciousness' is also used, in your sense, in the philosophical literature. So, I think this is simply a feature of language, re-using surface forms (words) to name different concepts. That happens a lot, especially when thinking about murky things like consciousness. So, I think everybody's "right" here. I don't see a fundamental disagreement. Ben
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
My approach is primarily from the eastern nondual schools and I also look at philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience to help try and find personal progress, so my approach is not primarily scientific but subjective phenomenology.
This matches my thought as well. There are many studies that I think back this up as well (especially ones dealing with the practice effects on dual-task experiments). Could you amplify or provide some links about these experiments?
So, I think this is simply a feature of language, re-using surface forms (words) to name different concepts. That happens a lot, especially when thinking about murky things like consciousness. I think there is a relationship but they are differing kinds of awareness. lfen
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
lfen,
Here's some info, I hope it is good enough for the time being. You can always search pub-med for some links to source papers. Some of these concepts are pretty general, textbook level stuff as well.
I hope that helps. The basic idea is, the more you practice something, the more 'automatic' it becomes. The classical example used is driving a car. When you're new, you devote all of your 'attention' and 'effort' to trying to drive the damn thing. You're very aware of what you're doing. On the other hand, experienced drivers routinely let their mind wander, even to the point where they almost 'wake up' and are surprised that they've driven so far--or even missed their exit. Ben {added by edit: name and a little more info for Paul Verhaeghen} This message has been edited by bencip19, 11-23-2004 08:16 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
OMG you guys are way smarter than me.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Ben,
Just got up and am making morning coffee. But I am very excited about your information because I think it will be helpful in another interests of mine which is dancing Argentine tango. An activity that is more complex than driving a car but which requires learning skills to the point that you no longer need to concentrate or even be aware of them as you move with your partner expressively to the music. I'm hoping this may lead me to greater clarity on some issues around learning and teaching as well. Dancers will talk of "muscle memory" which I find a misleading phrase. I've preferred the term "neuro-motor skills". In his "Inner Game" books such as THE INNER GAME OF TENNIS Tim Galwey talks about self 1 and self 2. Self one is what I've come to call the deliberate ego and Self 2 I've been thinking of as the total organism. Self 1 learning has a large linguistic component with self talk, verbal instructions, whereas Self 2 learning is by sensory input observation with modification by sensory feedback. It's not an either/or but a how much time is spent in one mode or the other. It may take me sometime to work through your links but I will be getting back to you. Thanks, lfen
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Simultaneous Interpreting (Gerver, Gile) Ben, I'm a little uncertain on how to track citations in this style, is this a Pub-Med citation? I'm beginning to muse of the comparison of simultaneous translation and expressive dance. Of course the translation of the first is from linguistic to linguistic, while the second is music to movement and auditory to kinesthetic but I'm still looking for ways to get dancers to move from executing steps in time to music to the point of listening to the music and their feelings and then find a way to move that is expressive of the music/feeling at each moment and now I'm wondering if translation might be a helpful or valid analogy. I can see it could be confusing is someone thought there were literal analogues. I'm not addressing content but the process how to parallel listening and moving. lfen
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
haha
Crash I say the same thing all the time when I read anything you write about genetics, evolution, etc. Well except it usually is preceded by banging of my head against the keyboard. Anyway, (hopefully) I'll be entering grad school for cognitive neursocience next year (applications due soon!!) instead of being a jobless bum in the most expensive city in the WORLD! Ben
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1429 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
lfen,
I read a paper yesterday (again) about motor equivalence (how can we sign our name with our FOOT?? But we can, and it looks a WHOLE lot like the way we do it with our hand). Kelso JA, Fuchs A, Lancaster R, Holroyd T, Cheyne D, Weinberg H.Dynamic cortical activity in the human brain reveals motor equivalence. Nature. 1998 Apr 23;392(6678):814-8. and in it, I came across a couple of references about motor control that sounded EXTREMELY interesting to me. Bizzi E, Mussa-Ivaldi FA, Giszter S.Computations underlying the execution of movement: a biological perspective. Science. 1991 Jul 19;253(5017):287-91. Review. Georgopoulis, A.P. Neural networks and motor control. Neuroscientist 3, 52-60 (1997) (note I couldn't find the second link in pubmed, and the link is just to the author's homepage. I couldn't find either article freely available on the internet). Anyway, I don't know too much about motor control. However, there are different levels (motor, premotor in the cortex, midbrain, spine) where we can try and understand "muscle memory." But of course, muscles don't have a mechanism for 'remembering' within the tissue. Gotta run. Late!
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