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Author Topic:   Could the US become a theocracy ?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 57 of 120 (166466)
12-09-2004 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Ooook!
12-08-2004 7:25 PM


Not that I don't agree with things you said, but I thought I should clarify...
Recently a EU commision was not voted in because the parliament... objected to the bloke who was to be in charge of justice when he said that he thought homosexuality was a sin.
Intolerance always creeps in, using the disguise of some value which needs protecting. If it comes in as unexposed intolerance then it usually does get beat down.
For instance in the US if Bush said he hated gays and didn't think they should be equals, he probably would have lost. There are enough conservatives which would have said that was not allowed. However, he is just fine saying that it is important that we protect the definition of marriage because of our shared values surrounding it.
This is truly the modern face of oppression. I don't hate you, and I am not an ignorant bigot, I am only doing this to protect this thing we all care about due to our shared value system.
And its amazing how often it coincides with religious values.
I would say that the emergence of values as a political tool is not a new thing, and not always a bad aspect of politics. It's when the (easy to articulate) values of nationalism and intolerance start to creep into politics that problems start
I agree that it is not a new thing in general, but it is a relatively new thing specifically in modern European politics. References to personal faith and values have been notably absent from government affairs since WW2. That is what separated European from US politics. Less than three years ago it was a talking point in Europe about how Bush's personal belief references were embarrassing to hear and would not be tolerated in a government official.
But of course now it is. This is the foot in the door. This is where we are made to feel comfortable hearing the kind of dreck falling from Bush's lips, but now with a European accent.
I don't think the problem is just values of nationalism and intolerance. I mean those are problems as well, but the real problem is allowing values to have a connection to politics in the first place. When deciding a piece of legislation, it should not have to pass a "European values" test. It should be tested on whether it is a practical solution for a government to apply to a problem.
The idea that a nation, or a collection of nations, must have some collective identity or it will become a "spiritless machine", is what moves through stages to eventually drive nationalism and intolerance, though by then the intolerance won't be noticed as that. It will be protecting our necessary identity. Otherwise without it, we will become a spiritless machine and we can't have that!
In this case Balkie is hoping that the Europeans will end up settling on Xian values, even if (to him) they don't realize that they are actually Xian values. Then he smiles patronizingly for he has won. Just like Bush claiming that freedom and democracy are originally Xian values given by God.
This is after all what he won an award for in the US... merging faith with government. It was funny when the papers here hailed the award as some sort of honor, thinking it was for some scientific achievement. I kept telling dutch people I knew it was for religion and they didn't seem to believe me. Then the papers did some research and found out it was actually for advancing religion into politics, and they all boo hooed. I told 'em so.
I suspect this is what you percieve as the 'dumbing down' effect.
To me the dumbing down effect is being created in a couple ways.
The first is the increased use of major media as not only the primary, but only newssource by most people, combined with the major media's falling into a small group of wealthy people's hands looking for money over quality (news). News programs are now infotainment at best, with opinion thrown around as if fact.
This creates a base stupidity, which is bad when many people start off not that bright.
The next is the loss of pragmatic, solution driven thinking. Instead everyone is more concerned with how they and others should "feel" about something... anything. And it is the feelings and values that drive the agendas. And of course if facts get in the way, people do not want their personal beliefs crushed and so the facts are discounted. This is how legislation gets started an passed without much critical evaluation. This is a law which we just feel is right, it is in line with our values, and protects what is valuable to us.
Bush calls this technique following his gut. It is in fact, willful ignorance.
This is how theocracies, or other value-cracies get hold of power. Everyone decides that there is a common value system, and then allow those in charge to be arbitrators and protectors of that value system.
To me it does not matter if it is Xian theocacy explicit, or the kinder gentler Xian derived value-cracy. The end is the same.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Ooook!, posted 12-08-2004 7:25 PM Ooook! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Mammuthus, posted 12-09-2004 5:56 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 63 by Ooook!, posted 12-09-2004 8:49 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 58 of 120 (166467)
12-09-2004 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
12-09-2004 4:31 AM


Re: Theocratic means absolute standards
You both have good points. I cannot argue against what you say.
Uhhhhhh. I brought up the same things, and you never answered me. Indeed you haven't answered any of my posts for a bit.
If you are not planning on responding to any of my posts in the future, will you please admit that my point was made regarding the ACLJ?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 12-09-2004 4:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-09-2004 12:39 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 60 of 120 (166473)
12-09-2004 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Mammuthus
12-09-2004 5:56 AM


one issue that I think counterbalances some of these forces of "identity" and "values" is that in European politics (especially in Germany) there are many competing groups with radically different views.
I agree. The parlaimentary multi-party system has impressed me quite a bit. It also allows for quick reversal of fortunes for all major parties, and that is something which is impossible in the US.
Unfortunatly I think the EU gov't is not the same as what we see at the local national levels of europe. Especially with the more powerful non-elected sections of EU, it seems that there is really no check at all on who goes in and what happens.
I think the people of Europe really need to nix the non-elected portions of their uber-gov't.
By the way I loved your post to PB. That lambasting on the sin of children vs adults was especially great. Also, is porn open to the public (ie viewable by all on the street) in Germany the way it is in the Netherlands and Denmark? I have been there but not long enough to notice.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Mammuthus, posted 12-09-2004 5:56 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Mammuthus, posted 12-09-2004 6:56 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 62 of 120 (166479)
12-09-2004 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Mammuthus
12-09-2004 6:56 AM


the rampant cheating in Brussels by people who claim to show up for work but actually don't yet get paid anyway.
I watched a special on the EU and how it functions from day to day. Do you know that some major soft drink company has exclusive rights to have their product served at all times to the people there? And of course all europeans are footing the bill.
I remember in the recent election there was a transparaant party or something like that whose only agenda was to start bringing these kinds of scandals out. We definitely need more of that.
Heheheh... maybe Nader should run for office in Europe.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Mammuthus, posted 12-09-2004 6:56 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 76 of 120 (166681)
12-09-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
12-09-2004 9:26 AM


Re: Theocratic means absolute standards
Once we told them that medical science has advanced so that we now understand that second hand smoke is injurious to others besides the smoker, I am sure they would understand their need to smoke away from others.
Schraf, don't you remember that I disproved this to you about a year ago? Unless something has popped up more recently, the second hand smoke thing is just as much hokum as it was back then.
Penn & Teller did a great Bullshit! episode debunking it as well. Indeed they took apart the same study you had offered me as evidence and I had taken apart.
Urggggh. This is the kind of stuff I really get upset by. Do you have new facts at this point? If not, why are you still trotting out your original position which had been successfully countered?
To be honest, I don't think they'd be impressed in any case. If you wanted to have a bar where people smoked, as long as people were free to chose not to go there, they wouldn't want laws preventing you from allowing smoking. That's called freedom.
The new freedom which is:" I should be able to go anywhere I want and not be offended... or put at risk... by behaviors that the owners and other patrons might like" is not freedom.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 12-09-2004 9:26 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 12-10-2004 9:15 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 88 by nator, posted 12-10-2004 9:37 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 78 of 120 (166687)
12-09-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Mammuthus
12-09-2004 9:41 AM


Re: Some General questions.
Imagine if job hiring practice at the goverment level was contingent upon your religious beliefs...want welfare? better start praying to jesus.
Well in a way this is already true. Gov't agencies are now employing faithbased contractors to fulfill gov't services and it has already been stated that they can refuse to hire if you are not a jesus worshipper.
This includes welfare and job placement services. I watched a terrifying tv segment (can't remember if it was a documentary, or news program) looking at a contracting service handling unemployment/job placement. They'd always try to push the Xian run programs, and then ask the people coming to that gov't office to go to church with them.
It followed one unemployed woman as she went in and started to take their advice and go to the church related work programs, then started going to church. In the end she didn't like it and wanted out but was now feeling awkward because she still needed the help but didn't feel right having to turn these people down and still get help from them. In addition, the people approached her children and got them in even as the lady wanted out they were putting pressure on her children to remain in.
I was totally creeped out.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Mammuthus, posted 12-09-2004 9:41 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Mammuthus, posted 12-10-2004 2:50 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 79 of 120 (166691)
12-09-2004 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-09-2004 12:39 PM


I will not agree that the ACLJ is a threat to America
I didn't say the ACLJ was a threat to America. You made a claim that it was just interested in defending rights of Xians. That was false.
Indeed you made it appear that it was necessary to counter the ACLU, when it has been shown that the ACLU would have been just as likely to take on the cases you mentioned.
The ACLJ is trying to change America, by advancing evangelical morals into the government system. That is bad. Thankfully it is not a threat because it is not that strong yet.
You guys need to see both sides as well as I do!
Maybe we do see both sides, and you are the one that is not. All I know is that I am not trying to force anyone else to believe what I do, using the power of the government. The same cannot be said for the "other side".
They would soon see a godless one world government
Well I'm not for a one world gov't so I hope not. Neither am I for everyone being godless. However if you mean that all gov'ts will be godless, then what is wrong with that?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-09-2004 12:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 83 of 120 (166882)
12-10-2004 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Mammuthus
12-10-2004 2:50 AM


Re: Some General questions.
I have also heard of similar programs that are legally allowed to exlcude based on religious beliefs yet receive tax money...
Actually I am a little intrigued, now that you've said in Germany they have churches collecting taxes. Do they have other church-state functions as well?
One thing that has me amused by the EU is that it contains such diverse gov't setups. You have total secular nations like France and sec-rel hybrids like Germany, as well as full democracies like France and dem-monarch hybrids like the Netherlands.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Mammuthus, posted 12-10-2004 2:50 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Mammuthus, posted 12-10-2004 4:37 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 85 of 120 (166888)
12-10-2004 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Mammuthus
12-10-2004 4:37 AM


Re: Some General questions.
One of the top political commentators and members of the CDU is jewish (Michelle Friedman).
To be fair, maybe she's a jew for jesus.
I would say the only benefit of Bavarian catholocism that I have experienced is that we get a ton of extra holidays that nobody else does
Try being in a Xian oriented, monarchy. It seems like every other week there's another holiday. And of course if you throw in the true national religion of football... well then.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Mammuthus, posted 12-10-2004 4:37 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 101 of 120 (167232)
12-11-2004 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by nator
12-10-2004 9:47 AM


Re: Schraf & holmes
OK, but he started it.
I hope that's just a joke. You can easily look back and see that you were the one that brought up smoking as something the Founding Father's would have agreed to restrict because there is scientific evidence that secondhand smoke is a danger. I just reminded you that I had already discredited your earlier claim of that.
Your new citations are neither new, nor do they prove... or even suggest... what you are arguing. If you want to know why you are wrong, start a thread on them. But I am going to ask this up front... find your best evidence. That way I can deal with your best evidence and not have to keep addressing new cites in the future (unless they are brand new studies).
By the way, I don't trust anything the EPA says unless I look directly at the study, including the data. I have very good reasons, and I would suggest you do this as well.
And I stand by my statement that the founders of this country, even if the data were true, would err on the side of allowing people to run their businesses as they see fit. You can always choose not to go there or start your own business.
The government should not be telling people how best to live their lives.
This message has been edited by holmes, 12-11-2004 05:38 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 12-10-2004 9:47 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by coffee_addict, posted 12-12-2004 12:36 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 112 by nator, posted 12-13-2004 7:33 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 120 (167330)
12-12-2004 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by coffee_addict
12-12-2004 12:36 AM


Re: Schraf & holmes
The question is if the government is allowed to tell people how best to live their lives, whose version of good life are we going to officially follow?
I don't know if I agree with this statement at all. It seems to me the question of this thread is could the US come to a point where it is a theocracy and tell people that they must live a Xian life.
I do not see us having to resort to asking whose version of life should the gov't be imposing.
To me "the question" is if the gov't should be telling people how to lead their lives at all, and the resounding answer (if this is supposed to remain the US) is "no". With that answer, whose version are we going to follow is moot.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by coffee_addict, posted 12-12-2004 12:36 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 5:18 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 107 of 120 (167632)
12-13-2004 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by coffee_addict
12-13-2004 5:18 AM


Re: Schraf & holmes
It's sort of like "suppose we steal the cake... then what?"
I get this idea, and I am not saying you are wrong for doing so, or that it is not a legitimate question. My problem is that you said the question is whose do we impose. I don't believe that is as important.
I think it works as a nice reductio to help explain why we answer the most important question with an emphatic NO, but that still leaves it a part of answering the first and most important question. It is not a stand alone type thing.
Hope that makes more sense.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 5:18 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 6:50 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 109 of 120 (167645)
12-13-2004 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by coffee_addict
12-13-2004 6:50 AM


Re: Schraf & holmes
I didn't say you were a moron, I said you were inaccurate.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 6:50 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2004 8:38 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 113 of 120 (167996)
12-14-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by nator
12-13-2004 7:33 PM


Re: Schraf & holmes
1) yes, it was a joke. Didn't you see my "(pouts sullenly)" comment?
Yeah I saw the comment, but that doesn't necessarily make the previous sentence something you don't think is true. But I get it.
2) Do you think that smoking should be allowed in office buildings where non-smokers must work alongside smokers?
As phrased this is something of a stock dilemma.
If the idea is smokers being allowed to smoke within the same business building, and rooms as nonsmokers, the short answer would be yes, but then it sounds like there are no exceptions. The long answer is a bit too long for this thread (where we were already warned). Suffice it to say that there are differences between types of office buildings and the people who own and operate them, and there is a difference in environmental conditions within rooms of a building. One thing you will note about studies on ETS, they have very little to say on the effects of smoking in a business office.
If the idea is that nonsmokers should be forced to work in a business office, with little ventilation, right next to chainsmoking employees, the short answer is no.
Personally I hate cigarette smoke, and I do think offices should be conducive to comfort of employees. Regardless of health risk, smoke is pretty undeniably an irritant. Employers should keep that in mind. Not sure I'd make that a law though.
By the way, what's with the new avatar? I liked you on the horse.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by nator, posted 12-13-2004 7:33 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 12-14-2004 8:00 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 115 of 120 (168069)
12-14-2004 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nator
12-14-2004 8:00 AM


Re: Schraf & holmes
I have recently been introduced to the short-lived but fantastic TV series "Firefly".
Ahhhhh... I actually didn't like the show. This is not to question your taste, just saying it wasn't great from my perspective. There was only one episode which I thought was a truly original take on sci-fi and that was when the insane assassin/bounty hunter came in. The rest looked to derivative of other works... for me.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 12-14-2004 8:00 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by nator, posted 12-14-2004 4:40 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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