Could the US become a theocracy ?

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The issue I'd like to talk about is does anybody think it could happen. Essentially it seems to me all you need is a concerted campaign to elect appropriate numbers of Senators and Representatives and State legislators and it could be done.

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Perhaps as a chilling example of how bad things can get is that Hitler was democratically elected. If you undermine the process of representative government substantially over time and stack committees, the courts, the legislation with like minded individuals, you could relatively quickly end up with a theocracy and/or dictatorship. It has happened before and there is absolutely no compelling reason that I see to think the US is immune. Democracy requires an active electorate willing to defend its rights all the time. Anything less is at the risk of those seeking power for an elite few.

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Equal access will prevail.

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Oh really...so when under the proposed "faith based initiative" rules a religious group can simultaneously recieve tax money yet discriminate against, not serve, etc. those who do not accept their religious views, equal access will prevail? More like state sponsored religious discrimination i.e. theocracy is already banging at America's door. Of course the warm welcome will be over as soon as the different christian groups start discriminating against each other.

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I think the 2004 election witnessed a very active electorate, and indeed they wanted to defend their rights... as they saw them. And yes I am talking about the side which voted for Bush.

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An active electorate is not the only criteria. One needs an honest and knowledgable electorate unwilling to trade their principles just for power.

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You are right and I should have worded what I said more carefully. Of course a dictator could be democratically elected if the majority of the population is stupid enough to want it. If the majority of Americans hate freedom of religion, freedom of ideas, freedom of association, etc. and want the constitution shredded, this can also happen democratically..and then democracy will cease. And those craving power will push that way as hard as they can..which is what we are seeing.
The media portrays the so called divide in America as a bad thing with constant calls for the country to unify. I see no reason for this. If anything, those who do not want to succumb to a religion, greed, and power driven theocracy in the US should continue to resist and maintain a polarized country.

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I also see the need for some absolute authority to restrict things that can destroy a country.

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absolute authority almost destroyed Germany under Hitler, Italy under Mussolini and Russia under Stalin. Absolute authority is dictatorship. Freedom for all means that you have to put up with things you may not approve of just as those who don't like your beliefs have to allow you to hold them. Absolute authority means one person or group determines for all and eliminates anyone who disagrees...is this what you want? Many Americans clearly do.

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Unless, of course, you want your kids to have the right to gamble, see porn on the net, and see every alternative lifestyle tempting them to explore their own little freedom.

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No we certainly would not want children to explore, learn anything, or determine what appeals to their own tastes..it of course must be predetermined by some absolute authority that nobody can agree on...next thing you know they might want freedom and obviously, freedom must be bad or so many Americans would not be so actively trying to undermine it or happy to see it dimished.

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I'm going to both agree and disagree with this statement. I do agree that personal positions should remain intact and polarized. That is good for the US. However I think it is bad that people are unwilling to come to the table to create rational solutions, and instead stand on all or nothing political positions.

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I think no matter what, this does happen anyway but at a much more local level. In towns and cities where people know one another, it is easier to find rational solutions based on common interest and positions. It seems to be impossible at the national level.

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But before the US takes all the heat, why are we not questioning the ability of Europe to do the same?

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Ah may friend, don't think I am letting Europe off at all. Europe is a hypocritical, self righteous, disappointment. The actions of the US are almost universally used as excuses for the abject failure of the EU to function properly...and for all the bitching about the US, particularly in Germany, what is the opposition (which leads in all polls) doing? The CDU and CSU are campaining on a Christian moral values and patriotism ticket that explicitly lays the blame for social problems on..take a guess...foreigners. They want to penalize foreigners for not following the German "leading culture". You would think given their history they would be a bit more careful. Going into 2006, Germany will be faced with a hopeless election. Either vote for extreme parties on the right or left. Otherwise you have the choice of maintaining the current government which is stupdendously incompetent or vote for a party campaining on xenophobia and patriotism... And this is playing out in various degrees all over Europe...and then they say the US sucks? The world appears to be engulfed in a wave of mass stupidity.

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The main reason I don't think this will ever see the sight of day is that the real power in the EU isn't the Commission or the rotating presidency, it's the Council of Ministers - i.e. the national governments. I just don't see them passing it - I would guess at least the UK and Scandanavian countries will not agree to it.

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I would not be so sure. It depends on the horse trading that goes on behind the scenes. The French will bargain anything away to keep the CAP level payments high (specifically to a few of their richer farmers). Scandanavia might kick up a little but they could also get bought off. I mean look at the new legislation for cross boarder mergers...the Germans managed to destroy it in principle by forcing any company that takes over a German company to adopt the mitbestimmung rules i.e. workers make up 50 percent of the board. They must have traded something for that. So if all it takes to get something they want by saying ok..only Xian values for Europe..I think it would sail through. It all depends on who has what to trade and what they want to trade.

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This is not only due to the church/state separation in places like France and Germany (as Mr Jack pointed out) - just look at the whole headscarf caffuffle - but also for a couple of other reasons: votes and money:

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I am not sure why it is thought that Germany has such an strong church/state separation tradition as France. One of the main political parties and the one that has spent the most time in power since WWII is the Christian Democratic Union. If you want a job that is in any way politically connected, you have to be a Xian to get it. The various Xian churches get tax money from the state. The only way to get out of paying part of your income tax directly to the church is to leave the church officially by applying, paying a processing fee, and informing the church where you were baptized that you are no longer a Xian (all of which I did as soon as I found out I was paying income tax to the Catholic church). None of this applies in France to my knowledge.And regarding the headscarf issue, the French handled the situation much better than the Germans. They banned headscarves, the crucifix, yamulka's and any other religious symbols being worn by state employees while performing their government functions. In Germany thay only banned headscarves but all Xian paraphenalia is allowed....and then people here wonder why foreigners don't integrate well in the country

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I can see the issues, Mammuthus. For the religious conservative, children are victims of "original sin" and do not have the ability to make strong and right choices without guidence.

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Cmon PB, this is not even logically consistent. So you are saying only children are victims of original sin but adults are not? So you as a pure perfect person have the right to restrict what your children do and even worse, what my children want to see, do or think? That is not conservative, that is fascist. You should turn it around, children have not been alive long enough to become such total unethical pricks that they should be guiding the adults in ethical behavior if you want to use total "sin content" as a measure.

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For the liberal, guidence = restriction on freedom.

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bullshit...who said anything about not offering guidance to children? the issue here is if you are allowed to impose your will on the children of OTHER people. You want to screw up your children for life, that is your choice and their misery...but imposing your beliefs on people who do not agree is un-American.

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For the right wing religious, God Himself insists on an authority structure as the best outcome. Freedom without authority was the result of the original sin.

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this is also what groups like the Taliban believe. So in essence conservatives hate the principles of freedom extolled by the US? That is what you are implying i.e. you are free to believe what a conservative believes= freedom.

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I think that a government totally free from any religious morality would probably be the fairest on a democratic level. I also fear that such a system would not be in the best interests of the future of humanity. What a conundrum.

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And what are the best interests of humanity? Theocracies engaged in crusades, mass murders, religious based conflict and hatred, trading in science for mysticism and charlatanism, jobs distributed by who prays the loudest, witholding information about the real world from children because of some 2000 year old mythology? Either you believe in freedom and democracy or you don't..you cannot be half pregnant. You either have enough faith in your own beliefs that they will sustain you even among a plural society full of people who disagree or your faith is so weak you have to impose it on everyone else by force.(fixed your quote /quote mistake.)PBThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-09-2004 04:30 AM

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The next is the loss of pragmatic, solution driven thinking. Instead everyone is more concerned with how they and others should "feel" about something... anything. And it is the feelings and values that drive the agendas. And of course if facts get in the way, people do not want their personal beliefs crushed and so the facts are discounted. This is how legislation gets started an passed without much critical evaluation. This is a law which we just feel is right, it is in line with our values, and protects what is valuable to us.

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While I agree with much of what your well written post says, one issue that I think counterbalances some of these forces of "identity" and "values" is that in European politics (especially in Germany) there are many competing groups with radically different views. The CDU/CSU is probably using the "values" and "patriotism" issue as a pure political ploy to steal votes from the far right parties like the NPD and DVU who have been doing well in East German states lately. It seems there tactic now is to tack far enough right to pull away some of the right wing nuts since the ruling SPD is losing votes to the far left (PDS pseudo-commies) which the CDU/CSU would never pick up anyway. The left and the Greens are split on all sorts of issues as well. Then you have the unions which are a de facto political party with a completely different agenda. So appeals for values and patriotism while really stupid won't work quite so well in most of the EU as it does in the US which is a two party system with two right wings anyway (Gore Vidal quote I believe).However, by doing it as you demonstrated, undercover and using stealth tactics, over time the danger for the EU is also very real.

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Unfortunatly I think the EU gov't is not the same as what we see at the local national levels of europe. Especially with the more powerful non-elected sections of EU, it seems that there is really no check at all on who goes in and what happens.

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I think the people of Europe really need to nix the non-elected portions of their uber-gov't.

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this is really where the UKs euroskepticism is helpful. the non-elected EU officials seem to feel everything they say or do should be rubber stamped..so what happens? Under Prodi's watch there was a huge money skandal...there is also an Austrian (who's name escapes me at the moment) who reports on the rampant cheating in Brussels by people who claim to show up for work but actually don't yet get paid anyway.The EU constitution as written is a nightmare. The Economist has shredded it on several occassions and the UK seems highly sceptical of devolving power to an uber-government in Brussels...I am hoping that this kind of tension and pressure will focus minds and open the process up.

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By the way I loved your post to PB. That lambasting on the sin of children vs adults was especially great. Also, is porn open to the public (ie viewable by all on the street) in Germany the way it is in the Netherlands and Denmark? I have been there but not long enough to notice.

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Thanks
Porn is perhaps not as open to the public as in the Netherlands. Prostitution is legal but is confined to specific parts of cities...ironically, one area is right in front of my research institute...at least somebody is making a profit.There is a lot of nudity on television and advertisements and Munich is famous for people walking around parts of the English Garden naked (though before anyone gets too excited, it is usually extremely overweight old men that make up the largest faction of nudists). Hardcore pornography including strip clubs with live sex shows are all over the central part of the city but it is not prominently advertised. I don't think it would compare with Holland. On the other hand, people are much more relaxed about nudity here. If you go to a fitness studio and use the sauna etc. it is mixed and nobody wears clothes. At lakes and swimming pools women walk around topless. You can spot the foreigners because they are usually the ones with their mouths hanging open and gawking while everyone else goes on about their business.

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The EU has prided itself on 'shared values' of 'co-operation', 'tolerance' and 'peace'. It's a bit of a cliche, but I still think an aspect of "Never again!" still hangs over Euro politics.

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This is probably one of the most important functions of the EU and not a cliche. The social, political and economic integration that has occurred since the founding of the EU is probably the most important feature that will prevent another major European war (at least among EU member states) in the near future.

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Now in the good old US of A, where the election can be won by appealing almost exclusively to evangelical Christians...mmm... I'm less confident.

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The plague of ignorance is much further along in the US than in much of Europe...and the old established churches of Europe are less prone to fanaticism (just another branch of government practically i.e. corrupt money hole ). The US is in far greater danger of becoming a theocracy than the EU at this point....on the other hand, maybe that is why (or part of the reason why) holmes and I are posting from where we are respectively

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Would most folk realize it if the US became a Theocracy?
What would be different?

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If the US did become a Theocracy is there any way that could be overturned other than violent revolution?

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Sure it would be different. Imagine if job hiring practice at the goverment level was contingent upon your religious beliefs...want welfare? better start praying to jesus. What if a requirement for holding office was belief in a specific diety? What if access to funds from the government say NIH or NSF was contingent upon all participants being fundamentalists? How about immigration i.e. at the high end in terms of graduate students etc who drive the scientific pre-eminence of the US? That would be gone since many are non-Xian. How about legally, abortion rights gone, freedom of religion (at least non-Xian) gone, forced proselytizing in schools even for non-Xian children, maybe even the right of women to vote or work would be nixed. Science education in school? forget it. Want to have the freedom to listen to the music you like? Forget it if it does not uphold "Xian" values. Censorship of the media...bring it on...a society that spies on and intereferes with the intellectual, financial, sexual and political lives of each of its citizens by force legally, financially and violently..that will be the American theocracy if people let it happen. The government would start serving the fundamentalists exclusively and suppress any dissent by force.And the biggest consequence...that would come when the different Xian communities started warring with each other over which Xianity should be the "correct" one for America so the Catholics, protestants, mormons, etc. could all do a nice little repeat of their previous wars until somebody comes out on top or everyone is dead.

The French banned everything...not just islamic symbols. The Germans are targetting Islam exclusively.

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It does not not mean that I don't think that my kids AND your kids need Jesus

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In a free and democratic society, you are free to believe this....just as I am free to believe that 1) there is no evidence for a person called jesus and even if, he was no god 2) my kids needs are none of your business and that I can raise my family the way I see fit. In a theocracy, you would force me and my kids to have your beliefs rammed down our throats on the penalty of legal action, financial terror or death. This is what the "other" side that you claim most of us here don't understand are gunning for..and ironically on in the name of freedom and patriotism.This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 12-10-2004 02:47 AM

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Well in a way this is already true. Gov't agencies are now employing faithbased contractors to fulfill gov't services and it has already been stated that they can refuse to hire if you are not a jesus worshipper

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In the context of jar's question, I was trying indicate what I thought would happen under a full fledged fundamenatalist theocracy. I have also heard of similar programs that are legally allowed to exlcude based on religious beliefs yet receive tax money...