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Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Could the US become a theocracy ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The main organization that opposes the A.C.L.U. and champions the Christian concerns is here: Error: 404
Apparantly, equal access is the over riding concern for them. They simply want religious literature,symbols, and links to be given equal access availability in public places. It is not fair for the Dalai Lama to have the right to speak at a college under the guise of cultural enrichment and yet ban the christians from having equal access to do the same and having church/state block them. In answer to your questions and concerns on a theocracy, NO it won't happen but neither will the religious people be silenced by a bunch of relativistic agnostics and atheists either. Equal access will prevail.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hello, holmes. In answer to your questions,
holmes writes: I refer you to this case which is on its way to the Supreme Court: Can you explain where you do not have equal access?Error: 404 The ACLJ filed suit when Tausha Prince, a sophomore at Spanaway Lake High School in Spanaway, Washington tried to set-up World Changers, a student-led, student-initiated Bible club. School officials refused to allow the club equal status with other student clubs because it was "religious." A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reversed a district court decision and ruled that the school district had violated Prince's constitutional rights. The appeals court determined that the school district violated the Equal Access Act of 1984 and the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment when it failed to permit the Bible club to have access to the same benefits given to other student groups - including access to the school's public address system. The school district appealed to the United States Supreme Court, but the Court denied review in October, 2003.
ACLJ is more than just Pat Robertsons attack dogs. Jay Secolow is a highly respected lawyer, one of the top 45 in the U.S. in matters relating to constitutional rights. I am glad that Secolow and ACLJ combat the people who do not understand what church/state seperation really is.
In the case of Gentala v. City of Tucson, the ACLJ filed a federal lawsuit on behalf of the Gentalas claiming the couple faced unconstitutional discrimination against religious speech regarding a National Day of Prayer event in 1997 in Tucson, Arizona. Clearly, the battle lines are drawn. Religous speakers will have equal access in education and in public events.
Under the city’s Civic Event Policy, nonprofit groups are eligible for a waiver of charges for various services — such as lighting and trash collection — in connection with events held in city parks. Pursuant to the policy, Tucson has provided free city services for such events as an Earthday Festival, a Hispanic Cultural Arts Event, and a Gay Pride Picnic. However, the city refused to provide free services for the Gentalas and their National Day of Prayer event, citing "separation of church and state." A federal district court rejected the Gentalas’ claims, but a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reversed that ruling by a 2-1 vote in April 2000. The city asked for a rehearing, which was granted, and an eleven-judge panel ruled against the Gentalas in March 2001. In June 2001 — just two-and-a-half months after the Ninth Circuit court of appeals issued its final ruling — the Supreme Court decided the case of Good News Club v. Milford Central School. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that denying a group equal access to government facilities just because the group planned to communicate a religious message violated the federal constitutional right to free speech. The Supreme Court also ruled that the constitutional ban against an establishment of religion did not justify the denial of equal access to religious speakers.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In this case, Theocratic means setting up absolute standards based on majority public values. One side is relativistic. They would have it legal for pornography to be openly sold and displayed soas your kids can see it. The other side wants absolute moral values. Theocratic?
Perhaps. If democratic means the rule of the people, than at least SOME of the people want to legislate morality. Others see this as a threat. I see both sides of the issue, holmes. I am not a strict conservative. I also see the need for some absolute authority to restrict things that can destroy a country. Things such as legalized gambling. Oh, we have rights? Rights to allow greedy profiteers to destroy the moral fiber of a society by using freedom to hawk their trash to the people? If that is what you want---unrestricted freedom--you will have a morally bankrupt society. I say that some conservative judges are needed. Some standards must be upheld. The standard of unrestricted freedom brings with it the right of unrestricted expressions that nobody with a conscience wants their kids to see. Unless, of course, you want your kids to have the right to gamble, see porn on the net, and see every alternative lifestyle tempting them to explore their own little freedom.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are expressing very, very un-American attitudes. Not at all. I am just expressing the opposite end of the political spectrum than you are. People on this side are as scared of you as you are of us. Thats why I am not too conservative. Certainly I disagree with some of the extremes on both ends of the spectrum.mammuthus writes: I can see the issues, Mammuthus. For the religious conservative, children are victims of "original sin" and do not have the ability to make strong and right choices without guidence. For the liberal, guidence = restriction on freedom. For the right wing religious, God Himself insists on an authority structure as the best outcome. Freedom without authority was the result of the original sin. No we certainly would not want children to explore, learn anything, or determine what appeals to their own tastes..it of course must be predetermined by some absolute authority that nobody can agree on...next thing you know they might want freedom and obviously, freedom must be bad or so many Americans would not be so actively trying to undermine it or happy to see it dimished. I think that a government totally free from any religious morality would probably be the fairest on a democratic level. I also fear that such a system would not be in the best interests of the future of humanity. What a conundrum. It is the attitude that allows a steady slide into facism and the end of liberty and freedom and our very way of life here in America. Conservatives fear liberals. Liberals fear Conservatives. Both sides care about how their children are raised. Indeed, it is the greatness of America that both sides can be heard! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-08-2004 12:50 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Scraff writes: Don't be so sure what they would express horror at. They may look around and see how society has changed. They may get to view some movies and T.V. They may get to dee the issues that would never have been understood or accepted by folks in their day. They would be horrified, allright, but it would not be because of the religious conservatives.
If the founders were alive today they would be horrified by your idea that the government should be imposing moral absolutes to the extent you suggest.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You both have good points. I cannot argue against what you say. I am just stirring the stew by representing the conservative side. I never claimed to be one.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
holmes writes: Oh sure! I will not agree that the ACLJ is a threat to America, however. We need some conservatism to institute the checks and balances that rampant hands off approaches cause. You guys need to see both sides as well as I do! Perhaps the Christians SHOULD butt out of legislating morality. They would soon see a godless one world government just like their prophetic (pathetic?)book hucksters always predicted. They may even see a world united and a sense of peace and security come upon a truly free global population. We all would then see if there was any truth to the prophecies concerning a suppossed Anti Christ figure. Who knows? Maybe we are seeing him now, disguised as a caring republican! If you are not planning on responding to any of my posts in the future, will you please admit that my point was made regarding the ACLJ? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-09-2004 12:40 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK, Schraff--I looked up the Jefferson Bible and was amazed to learn that old TJ, while a lover of Jesus as a philosopher, was hardly a Christian! I see where this argument stems from...the old freedom from organized religion in the old country idea! Perhaps I should go with my gut feeling...let the legislation of morality be the threat that it is. It does not not mean that I don't think that my kids AND your kids need Jesus, however. Perhaps we need better tv preachers that people...even non-christians--can actually trust and like, if not agree with.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-09-2004 06:05 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It is believers in your religion who are trying to get control of the government to force me to follow YOUR beliefs and YOUR religion.
Lets break down the differing philosophies to an individual level.I am happy to live and let live. Your side is not content to leave me and mine the heck alone. Take this situation: Your family lives in a small town. The voting block changes, as single factory workers move into the area. They vote to allow bars, liquor stores, ghambling, porn shops, and as an addition, drugs become rampant. You cannot afford to move. I would be in favor of legislating morality with a block of like minded families. What would you do? BTW, your teenagers are getting more unruly because of the forbidden thrills available in town. They always listened to you, however, until this new temptation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK, I see your point. All or nothing, and nothing is preferred when legislation of morality is concerned, right?
I do not know if I agree or not. I respect the point made, however. It is in the root of the belief systems. Christians believe and feel that a Higher Authority, whom they are well acquainted with, naturally is mean't to guide them. They believe that it is not through our own efforts, but through the Trust in God that improved lives occur as we become conformed to His will. I see where this belief system opens the door for human interference. It happened in History with the absolutist Monarchs and Popes. Expect more changes in World Governments to continue. I think that the wealthy Republican conservatives are scared. They are scared of losing the power and economic influence that they have. They fear that if a government of the people with a hands off approach comes to power, they will be forced to let go of the money and pay more for basic services for the masses. If I was rich, I would be scared, too. I'm not, however. I say that National Health Care is a go! Christianity has been used by these conservatives as a tool to garner public opinion. True Christianity is not of this world. Jesus never sought a Theocratic kingdom.(On earth, anyway.) This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-10-2004 02:03 PM
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