To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means

I'm still not sure I understand your question. In an earlier post you contrasted the rendering in Matthew, Mark and Luke with those in John. You also seemed to be contrasting the use of the term belief as it might be used today and as it is reflected in the Gospels.Can you expand a little on what you see as being different or where you are having trouble with the usage?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Bunch of really good questions. I'll try to deal with each as best I can but please bop me over the head if I'm misunderstanding. I don't think so. First, at in that day and time I would imagine that almost everyone believed in a GOD or GODs. For the general man in the alleyway, most everything was out of his control and in the hands of a GOD. So I don't think the issue of GOD's existence or non-existence was the pertinent. That much was a given. WoW! I'd say neither, the former, the later and both. LOLThe nature of GOD varies greatly throughout the OT depending on the period, the culture, the state of nationhood, the politics, the surrounding cultures, the moral or purpose of the particular passage or text. For example in Exodus alone we see a whole host of different GODs. They range from a kindly concerned father figure looking out for his children to a capricious, inconsistent, petulant child, to only one of many GODs trying to see who has the biggest wanger to a rapacious vengeful tyrant. Again, I believe that depends on a couple things. First, it is very difficult for us to even think in the manner (although sometimes I question this myself) of the folk from 2000 years, 4000 years, or even further back in time. We know what causes lightning. We know what causes desease. We know what causes earthquakes. As hard as we might try, we will never have the same point of view as someone from 2-4000 years ago.The books of the Bible were written to people of the day. When someone wrote the first draft of Exodus I doubt that he or she wondered how folk 2000 years in the future would understand it. It was for the immediate audience.Let me try to move on to what you are being asked to believe in today. I have to begin by telling you right off, this is only what I believe in and I will NOT ask you to believe in any of it.IMHO what is at issue today is pretty simple. Christians believe that GOD does exist, that he exists today, that he is active today, that he has charged us with certain goals related to our behavior and that after death there will be some continuation in an inspecified format.That is often taken and compared to a belief in Santa, the Tooth Fairy or TIPU. Those are all valid comparisons. For a non-believer there is absolutely no difference between the beliefs of a Christian and a follower of TIPU.When challenged like that many Christians get upset and say the comparison is not valid, but IMHO it's very true. There is little more to support my beliefs than those of the TIPU.But I believe in GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm pretty sure he's not looking for one right now. LOL Yes. Completely. I guess I'd start with the Universe itself. I find the system, the laws, the consistency, the logic and the sheer beauty of everything to be a pretty good argument. I do believe in first causes and think that is GOD. If we someday find the universe is the result of brane collisions my reaction would be, "So that's how he did it!"After that we move to a more personal level. I talk with GOD constantly. He answers in a small quite voice and through minor incidents. It's nothing consuming or awesome, more like the friend you know you can call regardless of the time of night.I trust such incidents because over my lifetime they have always been accurate and helpful.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No,as I said, that would have been a given at the time. The question of the day was not whether or not GOD existed but rather which GOD could help you most. I don't understand what you're trying to say there at all.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's not what I said. I think what I said was that the existence of the Universe is proof to me that there is a GOD. Not for a while, sorry. Very reasonable. Well, as long as you were relying on me as your source you'd be trusting me. But I would hate to think someone would place as much faith in me as they might in GOD.I don't think a belief in GOD or Jesus can ever be a secondary relationship. It is by nature between the individual and GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay. No, I really didn't understand that was what you were asking. Sorry I was still in a conversation between you and me and was trying to apply what you were asking to our conversation.But I believe that's a great question. As I've said here many time IMHO some of the biggest bigots and blasphemers are leaders of the Christian Church. When you look at those who have gone into televangelism, people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Gene Scott and the rest, it's hard to understand how they could ever be considered Christians.My personal belief is that they are just con men, crooks. Nothing really be, just felons. But in a Biblical sense you could also say that they are Satan, the Adversary. They are, like Satan, tools of GOD. They are the tempters, those who would test Christians and lead them away from the narrow path.They have all of the characteristics of Satan, they are appealing, teach a message of self-aggrandizement, and lead folk away from GOD and Jesus. They are in the Biblical sense the Adversary of Man.AbE:Please let me add one additional thing.I really don't think the issue of ultimate judgement is that big a thing. I don't think that the message of Jesus was "Behave or you'll get punished" but rather behave because that's the right thing to do.If these folk are simply behaving incorrectly then they will be judged, but that is between GOD and them. If they are Shaitan, then they are behaving as GOD wants them to behave and they will be rewarded.Now there is the other segment you mentioned, the follower who lies, cheats, steals, commits, adultery. There are two things involved. One is that is simpy human. We screw up regularly.The second thing is that many of these folk were simply tested by Shaitan's promise that simply believing in Jesus (or even just a profession) is a get out of hell card. They believed Shaitan's message and failed the test.This message has been edited by jar, 03-28-2005 08:30 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But I do see the Universe as an example of just that. You may not think I see it that way but I do. I then went on to talk about personal experience. Those are, as I have said, more in the line of a dialogue, a converstation. I trust them because my experience has been that they have always been consistent and helpful.But remember you are talking to a believer. I find evidence of GOD in many places, in a child's first awareness of the world around her, in the detail and behavior of little fingers and toes, in the flights of imagination of children at play, in my capability to appreciate beauty, in the sound of frogs that appear miraculously in puddles after a spring rain.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, IMHO that is the real message in Genesis and one that was later repeated in Jesus' life and teachings.The message of Genesis is not about some Fall. Instead, it is about responsibility. The moral of the Apple (or fruit of some kind) is that Man is aware of Good and Evil. With that awareness comes a responsibility. Cain's failure was not killing Able, it was a failure of responsibility; he knew what was right yet chose to do wrong.You ask, "... how does one decide who to believe/trust?" That's a great question with two key points. First, it really is up to you to make the decision. That is part of YOUR responsibility. Second, IMHO the way you decide is your knowledge of what is right and wrong. You must make a decision.GOD gave all mankind the Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO this is why we find so many correlations in every moral system developed. But he also gave us the capability to do either. It's which decision we choose that makes the difference.I would suggest that a good touchstone to help make that decision is Jesus recitation of the two Great Commandments and the passage I often quote from Matthew, "If you have done for the least of these ..."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yup, or at least I think so. GOD is not just another person. Absolutely true. True. But again, different times, different milieu, different culture.I'm not sure I understand your second sentence though. Can you elaborate on that for me?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking?Is there a purpose to knowing anyone? I'd say that my personal friendship with GOD has some value. As I have said, He has been a great advisor and companion.If that's not what you were asking then I'll try again.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay. Still not sure I see your point or what you're asking. Well, I didn't know there was such a campaign. No. One of the things I get from my relationship with GOD is companionship. See, I still don't understand what you're talking about. Why would anyone care whether or not you believe in GOD other than yourself? That's something between you and GOD. I can't imagine why anyone else would care or even think about it?I can see and understand someone being concerned about your behavior, but not about whether or not you believe in GOD.This message has been edited by jar, 03-28-2005 12:01 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, okay. I still don't have a clue what it is you're trying to say. I have no idea what that means. I'm not sure about that either. If by "The rest is believing what the religion presents" that you might believe in the lessons found in the theology, things like treating others as you would like to be treated yourself, then I'd probably agree.But when you add "or IOW having confidence in people." I kinda get lost. I'd say it's more you having confidence in yourself.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay. Maybe I understand what you're asking.Yes I believe GOD exists outside the Bible.Let me try a look at your list. I'm not so sure about this one. I have some problems with the Under phrase; I think it is closer to with. The next two I can accept if you mean that someday our behavior will be judged. And that he continues to speak. I'm not at all sure about this one. I think any meaning to life is external to ones relationship with GOD. Yes to the first part and not so sure on the latter. While the relationship can bring those things it is not limited to that. In addition those are certainly things that can come from other sources as well. That would be nice but we're human. Again, I'm not sure how that relates to the subject.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree pretty much with everything you said. I think the issue of belief in Christianity is not just a Pauline/John rewrite but in many cases a misunderstanding of what was said.I also agree that behavior is not stressed as much as it should be in Christianity. I think that's a major failure in many Christian sects today.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I absolutely agree. That would really make an interesting thread since I believe we're going through yet another redefinition of what it means to be a Christian. It's certainly not the first time other. I'm quite sure your very sentiments were echoed at the time of Paul, Constantine, the Reformation, the Age of Enlightenment and on and on.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion