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Author | Topic: To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I would like to seriously discuss the phrase "believe in" as it is used (and when it was used) in the Christian Bible concerning God and Jesus and how it is used in the world today concerning living persons.
From Strong's
Pisteuo = Believe: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in When we refer to "believing in" living individuals we aren't saying that we believe they exist. For example, when I say I believe in my husband, I'm not saying I believe he exists. I'm saying I am confident that he is capable of accomplishing a certain task or situation at hand. If I believe in a politician's foreign policy, I'm not saying I believe it exists, but that I trust what the policy says. In these cases we have seen the person perform or have read the documents and trust in what we experience and understand. We can clearly communicate our knowledge or experience to others as to why we trust. Others can also see and hear what we did.
Numbers 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst? This author shows that the people supposedly had signs to experience and to assist them in making their decision.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Here the author shows that the people were able to see Jesus and hear the good news that he preached, which was supposedly that the Kingdom of God was at hand. They were dealing with a physical person. The Books of Mark, Matthew, and Luke do not present the need to "believe in" what Jesus was, but what he said concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God. The later Book of John, OTOH, very heavily stresses belief in the name and what Jesus supposedly was, but not necessarily in the good news that Jesus preached. Today when someone asks, "Do you believe in God or Jesus?" the assumption is do I believe that they exist now. It is asked in the same way that people ask do you believe in fairies or the Easter Bunny. If these things existed outside of the imaginations and books that housed them, then we wouldn't need to believe, we would see them and know they were there. No one asks "Do you believe in cars?" When I searched for what "believing in" God means today I find the following: To believe in God means:to believe we are under Him, responsible to Him, accountable to Him. to accept that God exists. to realize that He has spoken. to see that life has a meaning. to believe that He is all-powerful and that we are His subjects. to experience real happiness and joy. to eliminate all forms of violence and exploitation from human society. Believing in God means:our lives and actions must reflect His existence. believing that life is basically good and worth living. To believe in Jesus means:you accept not only what Jesus taught but also what He claimed about Himself. to trust our life to him. walking in His footsteps and following His example. Obviously tradition has added quite a bit to what "believe in" means. The people of the Bible supposedly had physical evidence from which to make their decision.Today we are expected to trust without it. What did the authors of the Bible actually ask us to believe in and how is that different than what we are asked to believe in today?
Edited to change last question. This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-27-2005 07:38 AM "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Where does the Christian Bible support this dual meaning? OPI would like to seriously discuss the phrase "believe in" as it is used (and when it was used) in the Christian Bible concerning God and Jesus and how it is used in the world today concerning living persons. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Today the simple question, "Do you believe in God?" carries the question of "Do you believe he exists?" period, which is the same way we ask about things we know don't exist.
Was Jesus teaching his students to believe that God existed? Was God upset in the OT because people didn't believe he existed or because they didn't believe he was the most powerful God because they followed other Gods? The people in the Bible were supposedly given physical evidence of God's power and therefore something to believe in (trust). As my list in the OP shows, today the term to "believe in" God carries whatever meaning the religion wishes it to carry; and as we have seen within this forum, people are deemed not to believe in God or to have believed in God because they didn't believe a particular tenet of religion. What did the authors of the Bible actually ask us to believe in and how is that different than what we are asked to believe in today? I guess that should have been my final question in the OP, but unfortunately it didn't form in my mind at the time. I think I will edit it. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What is the definition of human nature? quote:What were they scoffing at in the second century when the author wrote Jude? quote:The doubting Thomas episode takes place in the Book of John, which I mentioned in the OP stressed that we "believe in" the name or who Jesus was without physical evidence. Why the switch? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I have to get off the computer right now and will address the upper portion of your post later, but wanted to ask a question concerning your last statement.
quote:So you believe that he exists and you believe in his abilities, correct? What abilities have you witnessed and what causes you to trust them? Think of it as if you were recommending him for a job. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
jar,
quote: quote:I think you have read enough of my posts to know that I understand these statements. In the OT the authors don't seem to be presenting that God is trying to prove his existence to humans. The emphasis is on God trying to show that he is Top God. Have you read anywhere in the OT where God is trying to establish his existence with mankind?
quote:Then they shouldn't act as though he doesn't exist. If I went to a secluded tribe that has never seen what we call civilization and wanted to tell them about cars, I would not ask them do you believe in cars? I would show them a photo of a car, tell them how it works and what it is used for. Eventually, I could show them a real car. Until they see the actual car they can only believe what I tell them. So either they trust me or they don't. All we have of the Christian God is what the religious present. So we either believe what they say or we don't. Since I grew up in the church, I accepted what was being said as true. Then I studied the Bible and listened closely. I came to the conclusion that what they told me was not true. I no longer believe what the tenets of religion claim. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:But you didn't see God create the universe, unless of course you are older than dirt. quote:Which means you can't introduce me to God and the three of us have a nice conversation. I would have to believe what you tell me. So if your behavior or actions do not support what you are telling me, then I won't believe what you tell me about your God, because all I can experience is you and not what is in your head. Who am I actually trusting or mistrusting? You or God? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I understand what the story was about, but the evidence was not alive at the time the Book of John was written. This discussion is about what the authors presented to their audience, which means we are dealing with the timeframe in which the books were written and who their actual audience was. If this is a stumbling block for you, I suggest you not continue in this discussion. If you do wish to continue in this discussion then answer the questions I asked in Message 9. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Then they shouldn't act as though he doesn't exist. quote: Yes you do. I know that cars exist, so I watch for them as I cross the road. I know gravity exists, so I don't walk off tall buildings. I know that if I break the laws of society I will suffer consequences. I have experienced people within Church communities who "believe in" God, that lie, commit adultery, steal, do not help others unless it is beneficial to themselves, etc. That includes the clergy. These are not people with drug or drinking problems. They are usually the cream of the crop. Are they truly behaving as though a powerful God was judging their actions for future retribution? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: jar writes: I guess I'd start with the Universe itself. I find the system, the laws, the consistency, the logic and the sheer beauty of everything to be a pretty good argument. I do believe in first causes and think that is GOD. If we someday find the universe is the result of brane collisions my reaction would be, "So that's how he did it!" God is applying for the job of My Deity. You are his reference. Now if you were my reference, you could not say that you know my abilities as an Executive Secretary if you have never worked with me or were never on the customer side of my performance. You might be able to be a character witness if you knew me on a personal level, but you can't truly vouch for my skills. I didn't ask you to prove God's existence, I already accepted that you said he exists. I asked you what abilities have you witnessed and what causes you to trust them? Now you can see the Universe, but you didn't witness his creation of it. So you can't really vouch for when or how he did it. What abilities of God have you witnessed in action? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Now see you added another level.
You say that God speaks to you. These people probably feel the same way. Since God apparently speaks internally and anything external is relying on what others who are supposedly in authority tell you, how does one decide who to believe/trust? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Do you see the difference in how you refer to God as opposed to how you would refer to a living person?
You talk of evidence as opposed to known. Your experiences are all internal and unknowable to those who obviously are not you. In the OT the authors presented external actions from God. We don't have consistent external actions directly from God today. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: Then the purpose of "believing in" God is what? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:We don't have consistent external actions directly from God today. Something that is done so that all can see within a specific timeframe. God doesn't speak upon request to a congregation so that all can hear.God doesn't light a candle in front of a group upon request. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:There is when there is a major campaign that says we all should. So you feel the purpose for believing in God is companionship? So if we don't have a need for companionship, then we don't have a need to believe in God. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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