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Author | Topic: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So interpretation is only correct if it agrees with the present belief? If I remember correctly, some of the prophets were rather unpopular for saying what people didn't want to hear. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Jesus didn't just say "the law", he said "the law of Moses." I think he was being very specific and not just talking about the five books of Moses. Look at the usage of the "Law of Moses" in the NT. They deal with the rules, not the stories. So I disagree with you, I think Jesus meant the rules and not the five books of Moses. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"The Law and the Prophets" is a Biblical phrase. The Law is the Torah or Pentateuch, the first five books of Moses, and the prophets are classed as a separate book by the Jews. I checked that in fact the list gives scriptures only from the Torah and the Prophets and not from any others.
How it refers to Jesus? Well, prophecy is never a direct statement but has to be interpreted. Those who believe He is the Messiah see it all as referring to Him and each one on the list describes a specific quality or incident that is in fact reported in the New Testament about Jesus' own life and experience. As for the time it was written and the audience written for, these passages WERE understood by the Jews to refer to the promised Messiah down through the centuries before Jesus and are still taken to refer to a yet future Messiah by those Jews who reject Jesus.
quote: No, but again it's IN the Law, in the Law of Moses or the Torah. That's what "The Law and the Prophets" means.
quote: Jesus was born of a woman, that is, Mary, and had no human father. Normally human beings are said to be the offspring of Adam, and Eve is not mentioned except in connection with Adam. To be born of the woman is something very specific about the Messiah who is promised.
quote: It's simply a New Testament statement about the fact that Jesus was "born of a woman." To be said to be "born of a woman" was not exactly a Jewish way of thinking, as it was a patriarchal society, so this fact of Jesus' life is understood to refer to the prophecy in Eden that God would some day send the world a savior born of the woman. The Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father.
quote: Again, it occurs in the Torah, the Law, which is what Jesus meant about the Law and the Prophets, and you aren't going to find the Old Testament TELLING you in so many words that Jesus Christ is the Messiah or the Jews would have to accept Him too. Jesus was essentially saying "I am the Messiah" when He said the Law and the Prophets had spoken of Him. As always, it is left up to the hearer to believe or not believe what he says. Prophecy is purposely ambiguous. It has to be interpreted. The list is giving all the Messianic scriptures (actually there are more than that) and how Jesus is understood to fit them.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: The Christian references are the New Testament statements about the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. That's why they're there.
quote: No point in arguing with you about your interpretation of the snake. Naturally the Jewish interpretation is not the Christian interpretation. The New Testament says the snake is actually Satan, and Christians believe that. As for wounding the heel, etc., the nail that fixed Jesus' feet to the cross pierced His heels, but the phrase is symbolic in any case. The Messiah will not be mortally wounded by the snake, but a head wound, which the snake is to suffer, is likely to be a mortal wound. Jesus' death utterly destroyed the power of Satan on this earth over all who believe in Him. It's just a matter of time before He returns and the devil's jig is up forever. I answered some of your points in my answer to purpledawn by the way so I'll probably just focus on others in your post.
quote: It's both a reference to the Jews and to the "new Israel" or the Christians. Again a matter of interpretation. Christians understand themselves to be "grafted in" to the "true Israel of God" and therefore part of the nation of Israel, not earthly Israel, not the state of Israel, but the heavenly Israel which is the people who follow the God of Israel.
quote: Some prophecies are now denied by the Jews as messianic because Christians claim them for Jesus but historically this was a very important messianic prophecy that the Messiah would come from Judah. This was said before David was born. Prophecy builds on prophecy throughout the OT. "Until Shiloh come" is a direct reference to the Messiah, a name of Messiah. It says that Judah will not lack kings (sceptre) or priests (lawgivers) until the Messiah comes. The fulfillment of this prophecy is historically complex, involving the Herodian kings of Judea, but the simple version is that after Jesus came the Jews had no more kings or priests at all.
quote: Or his descendants will be powerful and influential until the Messiah (Shiloh) comes and the power devolves upon Him.
quote: Prophecy often has double fulfillments, one referring to the earthly kingdom and one to the Messianic kingdom for instance.
quote: Those who reject the Messiah will be held to account.
quote: Double fulfillment in the earthly Joshua and the earthly Promised Land and a greater fulfillment in the heavenly Joshua and the heavenly Promised Land.
quote: David often speaks prophetically in the psalms. I believe we could even find Jewish teaching to this effect if we were to try to track it down. He himself is a type of the Messiah to come and knows himself to be the progenitor of the Messiah as well.
quote: It's prophetic language. A Christian credal statement is that Christ is begotten "eternally."
quote: Double fulfillment in David's reign and in the Messiah's reign to come.
quote: Matter of interpretation. But again I believe there is evidence, though it might be hard to track down, that there have been many Jewish teachers who have regarded this as Messianic prophecy. This is getting tiring, answering your whole post. Maybe I will get back to it later.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I think the answer is in Arachnophilia's post #8 :
quote: There was never again in Israel a prophet like unto Moses, and yet there is that prophecy that there WILL be a prophet like Moses. Eventually. Either the prophecy is false or eventually there WAS or WILL BE a prophet like Moses with whom God spoke face to face. Jesus Christ is the best fit.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Many prophecies have two references, one to the earthly, one to the heavenly, Jesus being the heavenly king.
quote: Well, for one thing nobody was ever raised from the dead BUT Jesus. David's psalms are often speaking from the point of view of the Messiah, according to Christian interpretation and I believe also according to some lines of Jewish interpretation. If I can find a good reference on that subject I'll post it.
quote: I'm responding in a very general way, not going into each psalm for now. Just the general point: There is usually an internal shift from a present context to another context that couldn't possibly refer to the present, as in the above case where any idea of a person's not seeing death is contradicted by the real fact that there is nobody who has not seen death EXCEPT Jesus.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I don't know about that. The Gospels don't mention Jesus and God talking face-to-face. Jesus and Satan, yes, but not Jesus and God.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
It's simply a New Testament statement about the fact that Jesus was "born of a woman." To be said to be "born of a woman" was not exactly a Jewish way of thinking, as it was a patriarchal society, so this fact of Jesus' life is understood to refer to the prophecy in Eden that God would some day send the world a savior born of the woman. The Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father. which is funny cause it is to this day matrilineal (according to what i've heard) and was at one point matrilocal.paraphrased: and this is why a man will leave his family and go to be with his wife
see? matrilocal.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
It's prophetic language. A Christian credal statement is that Christ is begotten "eternally." i think you'll prolly have to give her that one. the idea of a god unbound by time allows this. but i'm not really sure what we're allowing or what rules we're following.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I'd say it's implicit in all the many ways Jesus Himself is presented as Deity. But what would your point be? We should still await this Prophet that is supposed to like MOses?
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Well, for one thing nobody was ever raised from the dead BUT Jesus. David's psalms are often speaking from the point of view of the Messiah, according to Christian interpretation and I believe also according to some lines of Jewish interpretation. If I can find a good reference on that subject I'll post it. incorrect. there were plenty of people raised from the dead in that book. well. by jesus.
Just the general point: There is usually an internal shift from a present context to another context that couldn't possibly refer to the present, as in the above case where any idea of a person's not seeing death is contradicted by the real fact that there is nobody who has not seen death EXCEPT Jesus. incorrect. by tradition, jesus was dead for 3 days. and more to the point he is alleged to have decended into hell to battle satan, so that psalm about not letting the faithful one see the pit? no application here This message has been edited by brennakimi, 04-17-2005 12:20 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Matrilineal, now at least, yes. Matrilocal, I don't know. But matriARCHAL, no, always patriarchal.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
incorrect. there were plenty of people raised from the dead in that book. well. by jesus.
===== Yes, AFTER Jesus, of course, and THROUGH Jesus, and BECAUSE OF Jesus, and BY Jesus, but never before Jesus. Hm. Well Elijah and Elisha raised a couple from the dead. That was a foreshadowing of Jesus too. But all those died again. Even those Jesus raised from the dead died again. Jesus however lives eternally, and after those who believe in Him die -- we all must die- we too will live with Him eternally. Jesus is the First Born of the New Creation, the first to be resurrected eternally, which He did by His own power and the power of God the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit, all three. {Edit note: Sorry, I have this bad habit of forgetting to use the "Preview" and then going back to make all kinds of changes. I'm trying to reform. Anyway, this post did get changed in too many ways and I hope it didn't cause problems for anyone trying to resond to it.) This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 12:25 PM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
i think we are still to await the king. if that's the return of jesus then fine. but i cannot justify worshiping him now. if he is the one, he is man. wholly god maybe, but still wholly man. that means he was formed of the dust. this makes him a graven image and worshipping him idolotrous.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 04-17-2005 10:05 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: The Hebrew word "Betulah" specifically means "virgin" so you can't say Hebrew doesn't have a word for it. However, the word "Almah" is the one used in this passage and it does mean "young woman." It is used I believe five or six times in the Old Testament and in all but two of those places it is translated "young woman" in most English translations, but in those two it is translated "virgin," one in this Isaiah passage and one in the Song of Songs. It was translated this way NOT just by Christian translators but by the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was made two or three hundred years before Christ {Edit: the Greek for "virgin" being "Parthenos."} It was also understood to be a Messianic passage by Jews of that time. There is simply too much going on here to take the time to examine a single passage like this, but I believe just reading through it makes it clear that at some point there's no way it can be continuing to refer to the present situation with Ahaz. In any case, as I've mentioned before, prophecy, and especially messianic prophecy, usually has a double reference, both to a current or earthly situation and to a later fulfillment. "Immanuel" means God with us, certainly a Messianic title. It may also be somebody's name.
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