Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

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Prophecy is interpreted through divine wisdom and not mere scholastic and critical interpretation.

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So interpretation is only correct if it agrees with the present belief?If I remember correctly, some of the prophets were rather unpopular for saying what people didn't want to hear.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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genesis is a part of the torah. torah literally means "law." that makes genesis valid for discussion, unless it can be shown that it was not integrated into the torah until after jesus's time.

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when jesus said "the law" he was referring The Torah, not just the codes of conduct contained in it. torah means law.

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Jesus didn't just say "the law", he said "the law of Moses." I think he was being very specific and not just talking about the five books of Moses.Look at the usage of the "Law of Moses" in the NT. They deal with the rules, not the stories.So I disagree with you, I think Jesus meant the rules and not the five books of Moses.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

"The Law and the Prophets" is a Biblical phrase. The Law is the Torah or Pentateuch, the first five books of Moses, and the prophets are classed as a separate book by the Jews. I checked that in fact the list gives scriptures only from the Torah and the Prophets and not from any others.How it refers to Jesus? Well, prophecy is never a direct statement but has to be interpreted. Those who believe He is the Messiah see it all as referring to Him and each one on the list describes a specific quality or incident that is in fact reported in the New Testament about Jesus' own life and experience.As for the time it was written and the audience written for, these passages WERE understood by the Jews to refer to the promised Messiah down through the centuries before Jesus and are still taken to refer to a yet future Messiah by those Jews who reject Jesus.

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The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
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1. This is not a Law.

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No, but again it's IN the Law, in the Law of Moses or the Torah. That's what "The Law and the Prophets" means.

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2. How does Genesis 3:15 say that the Messiah specifically will be the offspring of the woman Eve. If she was the first woman, then all humans are her offspring.

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Jesus was born of a woman, that is, Mary, and had no human father. Normally human beings are said to be the offspring of Adam, and Eve is not mentioned except in connection with Adam. To be born of the woman is something very specific about the Messiah who is promised.

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3. Galations 4:4 does not refer to scripture.

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It's simply a New Testament statement about the fact that Jesus was "born of a woman." To be said to be "born of a woman" was not exactly a Jewish way of thinking, as it was a patriarchal society, so this fact of Jesus' life is understood to refer to the prophecy in Eden that God would some day send the world a savior born of the woman. The Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father.

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The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

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Again not a Law and not specific to Jesus.

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Again, it occurs in the Torah, the Law, which is what Jesus meant about the Law and the Prophets, and you aren't going to find the Old Testament TELLING you in so many words that Jesus Christ is the Messiah or the Jews would have to accept Him too. Jesus was essentially saying "I am the Messiah" when He said the Law and the Prophets had spoken of Him. As always, it is left up to the hearer to believe or not believe what he says.Prophecy is purposely ambiguous. It has to be interpreted. The list is giving all the Messianic scriptures (actually there are more than that) and how Jesus is understood to fit them.

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lets take these a few at a time then, shall we?
let's start at the beginning, and of course rule out the CHRISTIAN literature. it's simply not what jesus was referring to.

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The Christian references are the New Testament statements about the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. That's why they're there.

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The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15

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No point in arguing with you about your interpretation of the snake. Naturally the Jewish interpretation is not the Christian interpretation. The New Testament says the snake is actually Satan, and Christians believe that.As for wounding the heel, etc., the nail that fixed Jesus' feet to the cross pierced His heels, but the phrase is symbolic in any case. The Messiah will not be mortally wounded by the snake, but a head wound, which the snake is to suffer, is likely to be a mortal wound. Jesus' death utterly destroyed the power of Satan on this earth over all who believe in Him. It's just a matter of time before He returns and the devil's jig is up forever.I answered some of your points in my answer to purpledawn by the way so I'll probably just focus on others in your post.

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Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
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this is not a messianic prophesy of any kind. it's about the establishment of an israeli state. read the verse before it:

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Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

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he will be a blessing, because those that bless ISRAEL will be blessed. nothing to do with any messiahs of any kind.

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It's both a reference to the Jews and to the "new Israel" or the Christians. Again a matter of interpretation. Christians understand themselves to be "grafted in" to the "true Israel of God" and therefore part of the nation of Israel, not earthly Israel, not the state of Israel, but the heavenly Israel which is the people who follow the God of Israel.

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The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10
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Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
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this is prophesy of a sort, but not regarding the messiah. this is actually a BLESSING, delivered by jacob to each and every one of his sons while on his death bed. it is a blessing delivered strictly to the sons. here's the hint: "until Shiloh come."

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Some prophecies are now denied by the Jews as messianic because Christians claim them for Jesus but historically this was a very important messianic prophecy that the Messiah would come from Judah. This was said before David was born. Prophecy builds on prophecy throughout the OT. "Until Shiloh come" is a direct reference to the Messiah, a name of Messiah. It says that Judah will not lack kings (sceptre) or priests (lawgivers) until the Messiah comes. The fulfillment of this prophecy is historically complex, involving the Herodian kings of Judea, but the simple version is that after Jesus came the Jews had no more kings or priests at all.

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he's saying that judah will be powerful and influential until his death.

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Or his descendants will be powerful and influential until the Messiah (Shiloh) comes and the power devolves upon Him.

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this probably has another meaning as well, regarding the split kingdoms. it's placing judah as the dominant, important kingdom, a trend followed in the rest of the bible. nothing to do with the bible.

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Prophecy often has double fulfillments, one referring to the earthly kingdom and one to the Messianic kingdom for instance.

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The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19
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Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.

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Those who reject the Messiah will be held to account.

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Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
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and after that:
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Jos 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.

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wrong joshua.

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Double fulfillment in the earthly Joshua and the earthly Promised Land and a greater fulfillment in the heavenly Joshua and the heavenly Promised Land.

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The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7
let's find a more poetic source. here's the jps:

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Psalm 2:5-7
Then He speaks to them in anger
terrifying them in His rage,
"But I have installed My king
on Zion, My holy mountain!"
Let me tell of the decree:
the LORD said to me,
"You are My son,
I have fathered you this day."

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god sets the king on the mountain. god fathers the king that day. now, who wrote this psalm, do you suppose? i'm gonna guess david. it's just a guess.

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David often speaks prophetically in the psalms. I believe we could even find Jewish teaching to this effect if we were to try to track it down. He himself is a type of the Messiah to come and knows himself to be the progenitor of the Messiah as well.

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saying it refers to christ is impossible. christ would have to have written it (as in, not through david) and considering it was written long before christ was born, that's impossible. also, "i have fathered you THIS DAY" is a little suspicious, don't you think? on what day was christ fathered? on the day he was set up as king of israel and judah? well, considering that never actually happened.... either way, it'd be blasphemy.

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It's prophetic language. A Christian credal statement is that Christ is begotten "eternally."

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this verse cannot refer to jesus. it refers to david. it's about his coronation, and the politics of the ancient middle east. turns out in the middle east, calling kings living gods was quite the custom. since the israelites would have been unable to do that, they called them sons of god.

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Double fulfillment in David's reign and in the Messiah's reign to come.

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The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 propheciesnot all listed here)

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let's just make a rule here. psalms are not prophesies. ever.

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Matter of interpretation. But again I believe there is evidence, though it might be hard to track down, that there have been many Jewish teachers who have regarded this as Messianic prophecy.This is getting tiring, answering your whole post. Maybe I will get back to it later.

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The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
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This scripture doesn't mention the Messiah. God said He would raise up a prophet from among their brothers and that He would put His words in his mouth, and the prophet would tell them everything that God commanded.

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How is this more specifically Jesus, as opposed to, the other prophets?

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I think the answer is in Arachnophilia's post #8 :

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Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

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There was never again in Israel a prophet like unto Moses, and yet there is that prophecy that there WILL be a prophet like Moses. Eventually. Either the prophecy is false or eventually there WAS or WILL BE a prophet like Moses with whom God spoke face to face. Jesus Christ is the best fit.

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The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
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How is this song more specifically about Jesus, as opposed to, the kings of Israel or Judah?

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Many prophecies have two references, one to the earthly, one to the heavenly, Jesus being the heavenly king.

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The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

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How are these a reference to Jesus, as opposed to, the writer of the song?

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Well, for one thing nobody was ever raised from the dead BUT Jesus. David's psalms are often speaking from the point of view of the Messiah, according to Christian interpretation and I believe also according to some lines of Jewish interpretation. If I can find a good reference on that subject I'll post it.

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The rest of the Psalms you listed are along the same lines. Explain how they are specifically Jesus and not the writer or singer of the song?

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I'm responding in a very general way, not going into each psalm for now. Just the general point: There is usually an internal shift from a present context to another context that couldn't possibly refer to the present, as in the above case where any idea of a person's not seeing death is contradicted by the real fact that there is nobody who has not seen death EXCEPT Jesus.

I don't know about that. The Gospels don't mention Jesus and God talking face-to-face. Jesus and Satan, yes, but not Jesus and God.

which is funny cause it is to this day matrilineal (according to what i've heard) and was at one point matrilocal.
paraphrased: see? matrilocal.

i think you'll prolly have to give her that one. the idea of a god unbound by time allows this.but i'm not really sure what we're allowing or what rules we're following.

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I don't know about that. The Gospels don't mention Jesus and God talking face-to-face. Jesus and Satan, yes, but not Jesus and God.

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I'd say it's implicit in all the many ways Jesus Himself is presented as Deity.But what would your point be? We should still await this Prophet that is supposed to like MOses?

incorrect. there were plenty of people raised from the dead in that book. well. by jesus. incorrect. by tradition, jesus was dead for 3 days. and more to the point he is alleged to have decended into hell to battle satan, so that psalm about not letting the faithful one see the pit? no application hereThis message has been edited by brennakimi, 04-17-2005 12:20 PM

Matrilineal, now at least, yes. Matrilocal, I don't know. But matriARCHAL, no, always patriarchal.

incorrect. there were plenty of people raised from the dead in that book. well. by jesus.
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Yes, AFTER Jesus, of course, and THROUGH Jesus, and BECAUSE OF Jesus, and BY Jesus, but never before Jesus.Hm. Well Elijah and Elisha raised a couple from the dead. That was a foreshadowing of Jesus too. But all those died again. Even those Jesus raised from the dead died again. Jesus however lives eternally, and after those who believe in Him die -- we all must die- we too will live with Him eternally.Jesus is the First Born of the New Creation, the first to be resurrected eternally, which He did by His own power and the power of God the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit, all three.{Edit note: Sorry, I have this bad habit of forgetting to use the "Preview" and then going back to make all kinds of changes. I'm trying to reform. Anyway, this post did get changed in too many ways and I hope it didn't cause problems for anyone trying to resond to it.)This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 12:25 PM

i think we are still to await the king. if that's the return of jesus then fine. but i cannot justify worshiping him now. if he is the one, he is man. wholly god maybe, but still wholly man. that means he was formed of the dust. this makes him a graven image and worshipping him idolotrous.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 04-17-2005 10:05 PM

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The Messiah will be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14

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Isaiah 7:10-17
And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'

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But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.'

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And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.'

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now, we've discussed this verse a number of times here. but let's do it again.

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here's some important points:
1. the hebrew does not contain the word virgin. it just doesn't.
2. this is a prophesy delivered strictly to ahaz, to be fulfilled within his own lifetime.
3. the child's name is IMMANUEL, not JESUS (Joshua).
4. it is not a messianic prophesy in the regards most think it is.

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the prophesy is not the child immanuel. he is the SIGN of the prophesy, and of no consequence other than a time-keeping device. the prophesy is that aram and israel (whom ahaz of judah is fighting in isaiah 7:1) will be defeated. the child has nothing to do with this. he'll be just having his bar mitzvah when this happens.

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not about jesus. at all.

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The Hebrew word "Betulah" specifically means "virgin" so you can't say Hebrew doesn't have a word for it. However, the word "Almah" is the one used in this passage and it does mean "young woman." It is used I believe five or six times in the Old Testament and in all but two of those places it is translated "young woman" in most English translations, but in those two it is translated "virgin," one in this Isaiah passage and one in the Song of Songs.It was translated this way NOT just by Christian translators but by the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was made two or three hundred years before Christ {Edit: the Greek for "virgin" being "Parthenos."} It was also understood to be a Messianic passage by Jews of that time.There is simply too much going on here to take the time to examine a single passage like this, but I believe just reading through it makes it clear that at some point there's no way it can be continuing to refer to the present situation with Ahaz.In any case, as I've mentioned before, prophecy, and especially messianic prophecy, usually has a double reference, both to a current or earthly situation and to a later fulfillment."Immanuel" means God with us, certainly a Messianic title. It may also be somebody's name.