Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

read more. i've studied this long enough, hard enough, and carefully enough that i've found the christian interpretations are just so far off base that i'm having trouble justifying calling myself a christian now.wait till we get to the donkeys! it shows pretty conclusively that the nt authors are not only trying to get jesus to fit these prophesies... but that they don't know how to read them either!let's do that one now.

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Zechariah 9:9

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Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion;
Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem!

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Lo, your king is coming to you.
He is victorious, triumphant,

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Yet humble, riding on an ass,
On a donkey foaled by a she-ass.

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two observations. 1. this is FINALLY some messianic prophesy. 2. look at the structure, see the pairs?

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Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set [him] thereon.

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so which did jesus ride in on, the colt or the ass? matthew has them bring TWO animals. how many is zechariah talking about? one.you see, jewish poetry pretty tycially uses something called parallelism. this bit is even synonymous parallelism. "rejoice" = "raise a shout." "zion" = "jerusalem." "ass" = "donkery." one animal.matthew misread it. and so if jesus DID fulfill this prophesy, matthew changed the details to get them to fit his distorted reading of the older text. so, how credible do you think he is as a source now?let's keep reading.

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Zechariah 9:10

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He will banish chariots from Ephraim
And horses from Jerusalme.

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The warrior's bow shall be banished.
He shall cause the nations to surrender,

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And his rule shall extend from sea to sea
And from ocean to land's end.

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nearest i can tell, jesus did not excercise military control over all the world, in such a degree that there is no war in jerusalem. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's still war going on today.this verse cannot be about jesus. so either the prophesy is wrong, or matthew just made up the story.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-17-2005 08:16 PM

why not? they sotry is supposed to make a convincing argument that job is WRONG. not everybody always agrees with god, you know. it just happens that god is right, and they are wrong. and entirely unneccessary. why would god need to redeem us from himself? is god subject to his own rules? can't he just forgive us without requiring something die? can't he just ignore the rules, and get rid of them, without having to forgive us?and christ does not fit the levitical standards for atonement sacrifices. the foremost being that in just believing, we are not giving up anything. it's not a sacrifice unless we sacrifice something.

my purpose in this thread is to determine the validity of christian theology based on the evidence of the older texts.so far, it hasn't been doing very well. i've had a bit of a crisis of faith recently. i don't know what to make of christianity anymore when i run into blatant misreadings, and out of context misrepresentations that try to squish jesus through these messianic hoops that just don't fit.it's just not consistent. it doesn't line up. and i've read enough of it, and understood it well enough now to know that

You asked what Jesus meant. I found a site that gives the answer. You and Arachnophilia then challenged various points and I've been trying to answer them.

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Unforatunately you haven't shown the consistency in your posts. The explanation and the words don't match up.

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That's a pretty broad accusation there. Can you show me what you mean specifically?

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This is accuracy and inerrancy, which to me means, stick to evidence.

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Far as I know I've done nothing but supply what I understand to be the correct answers to questions and challenges about the topic of the title.Since the question is about what the OT says about Jesus perhaps it doesn't belong in Accuracy and Inerrancy but someplace else.

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IOW, if the words say "the cow jumped over the moon", don't give me that theology says it means the dog jumped over the moon. If you do, you need to show me why the words don't match, with concrete evidence.

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The analogy is charming I'm sure but incomprehensible. I have no idea what it refers to in anything I've said.

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If you claim double meanings, you need to show evidence of it, etc.

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Really? I would think it would be a big start simply to point out that it is traditionally understood to be the case. Many of them obviously refer to events in Jewish history, so for them also to refer to Jesus means there is a double meaning. Some things have indirect evidence, not direct. The Trinity isn't directly in scripture either but it sure is all over scripture indirectly.

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Don't pass on Christian Theology if you can't show evidence to support their interpretation.

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Thought that's what I was doing. But oh well. I'll check in tomorrow to learn what kind of evidence is considered acceptable in the discussions you have here in the meantime. Good night.

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Zechariah 11:10-13

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And I took my staff Graciousness, and cut it asunder, 'that I might break My covenant which I had made with all the peoples.' And it was broken in that day; and the poor of the flock that gave heed unto me knew of a truth that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them: 'If ye think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear.' So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver.And the LORD said unto me: 'Cast it into the treasury, the goodly price that I was prized at of them.' And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the treasury, in the house of the LORD.

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zechariah is talking about himself. this is not not prophesy, but a record of his own actions. like a diary. in this case, he's tending sheep, and is frustrated with the other shepherds. so he breaks his two sheep-herdings staffs, graciousness and binders, or favor and unity, and breaks them in symbolic, prophetic gestures about what is going to happen with judah and israel.prophets, in that day were paid for their services. seriously.

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1Sa 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

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and so zechariah is paid his wages. 30 shekels. there's nothing in this to even link it VAGUELY to the jesus story besides the price. so it's what we'd call a coincidence.

we're trying to find what jesus meant. it's pretty clear that THIS set of standard answers is simply not correct. we're not trying to be mean about, we're just actually reading them in context. i've devoted a considerable amount of time to actually studying and understand some of these things. and it doesn't line up.i really wish it did. don't get me wrong. no, this is the right place. we're using textual evidence, and not faith. (sorry, i know) but in almost every case so far i've pointed to reasons why they cannot apply to jesus, even after applying to other things. well, you have to remember that many of us here are capable of reading. in my case, i have a number of bibles available to me, a loose understanding the hebrew context, and multiples translations.so a verse says "the messiah's coming on a donkey" and christ comes on a donkey, we're good. until the next verse, when it talks about conquering the entire world, and ending the war in the middle east. christ did not do that. context is very, very important evidence. if the context of the verses around the verse you cite don't line up, neither does the verse.you can't just cut and paste verse from all over the bible, and pretend they're all talking about jesus.

I'd just say that what appears to you to be the "context" looks to me like a very very narrow literalized context compared to the overall context of the whole Bible. Not a good idea to trust your own fallible mind with the Bible in any case. It takes prayer, it takes submission to God. Reading commentaries and the books of the greatest Christians is a big help, and really it probably takes a lot of guided Bible Study and good preaching too. If you aren't doing it that way I don't think you're going to ever figure it out.Your answers to me so far have been exactly what the Jewish answers are, which I've debated many times though I'm no expert on it. I took you for Jewish at first for that reason -- you could run a Jewish Anti-Missionary program. But you'll never get to Christ by accepting the Jewish view, only farther and farther away from Him. What they do that keeps them from Him is, in a word, following the Letter rather than the Spirit, a major point of Jesus' teaching. But I don't want to beat you up with my sermonizing. I really DO have to leave. I hope you finally find Him.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 09:13 PM

if it doesn't fit the lesser, how will it fit the greater?if a section is talking about the messiah who will end all wars, how is apply JUST the bit about riding into town on a donkey valid? and in this case, the bible says the messiah that rides into jerusalem on a donkey will be a king who united the whole world under his military might to such a degree that there will be no need for instrument of war in the middle east. that's the prophesy.not the bit about riding in on the donkey. that's the sign of the prophesy. jesus tends to fulfill these signs... but not the prophesies. there's still war in the middle east. i've figured out a great deal. i've read all kinds of commentaries. i've taken classes. thought, and prayed.but what we're arguing here is an issue of what the bible says. it's not that hard to actually read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. an instance of zechariah being paid 30 shekels has nothing to do with jesus at all, for instance, except that judas was also paid 30 shekels for betraying christ. but zechariah did not betray anyone. his prophesy was the result of betray, and was paid for with the 30 shekels. the 30 shekels were not the prophesy. this is not interpretation -- it's reading comprehension.god gave us brains so we could use them. i'm not suprised by this. they wrote this part of the book, they probably know what it's about. their "answers" have been more appealing to me, because they actually fit with what the text says, and not this strange mental gymnastics act of out-of-context quotes that don't really fit anyways. but i do call them when they read too much into things after the fact. except i think jesus was a really cool guy. a head of his time. ahead of OUR time. i think until we as a species understand what jesus was saying, we won't progress any further in terms of our relationship to god.also, it's not fault that christainity's basis in judaism is rather shaky. i didn't write these books, i'm just pointing out where they don't make sense. if you wanna get me on the topic later, a lot of hebrew scripture doesn't even agree with itself. there is no consistent viewpoint to be had in the bible, and that is part of what makes it beautiful. there's something for everyone. newsflash.jesus was jewish. and he held decidedly jewish views. misrepresentation. jesus was speaking about laws and practices. for instance, "work" on the sabbath. the sabbath was not given to men so they couldn't drive cars or cook on saturdays. it's about taking a day off from the other six. he was more concerned (like the later prophets) with getting the heart and morals of the jews in the right place, and not strict adherence to the non-sensical walls around the laws.he's not saying "ignore the details, becuase otherwise it doesn't make sense." i did about 9 years ago. there's more to god than meets the eye. the standard christian ideas are so limiting and confining. god is so much more. there's nothing wrong with questioning, and getting to know god BETTER.

matrilineal and matrilocal cultures tend to be matriarchal. it may have simply been after the captivity (when the whole religion was rewritten) that they became patriarchal.

It was clearly patriarchal from the beginning, from the time of Abraham. When it became matrilineal I don't know.

the two are not exclusive.the descent is matrilineal, but the lines of kings and priests is patriarchal. to be jewish, your mother has to be a jew. to be king, you father had to king. and his father had to be king. etc, back to david.in judah, there is the additional requirement that it go through firstborns, not just any son as in israel. this is actually the quarel that split the kingdoms after solomon's death.

Does it take Divine Wisdom to figure out a Prophet?Hi, purpledawn! You sure have a lot of questions, and I know that each one of us sees things a little differently, so I am going to try and answer a question that you asked of me: as well as tie in something that you asked Faith to explain: I have said in other threads that there are basically two spirits.
1) Gods Spirit.(Divine Impartation)
2) the spirit of this ageHow do we know?Look at Genesis 11:6 KJV version. Strongs shows the word derived OT:2161 zamam (zaw-mam'); a primitive root; to plan, usually in a bad sense: -consider, devise, imagine, plot, purpose, think (evil).
Thus..basically if one or more people are "imagining" they are considering. They are plotting.
They are of one purpose. This purpose, however, is NOT the purpose unto which God has for them.Now lets take prophets. The prophet Jeremiah talks to the reader, explaining the predicament of foolish imaginations. The Prophet is saying that the people are twisted. That their vanity is bringing destruction upon them. They are operating out of their own vain imaginations.The NIV uses the word in a different context. What does it mean to follow your own spirit? The root of this word is found throughout the O.T. The same root is used to describe the Holy Spirit as is used to describe the spirit within men.
To me, it means that instead of allowing God to edify and impart wisdom into them, the false prophets were talking out of their educated and vain minds....following their own ideas and ignoring the Lord. They were following their own life and not allowing God to direct them.
Lets tie this in with the N.T. The concept of sin is the idea that a man does what is right in his own eyes and seperates himself from the path of God. Quite naturally, everyone does this from time to time. We all sin. We all seperate ourselves from God. It is our very nature. The Religious Jews did not understand why Jesus should be their leader. They had a tradition. They had rules. They had laws. The problem was that all of their leaders who wrote the rules and laws were themselves sinners. It is interesting how Jesus refers to the place where He is to go as a place that none of them can go. The place "below is called "beneath" or down under in the KJV.
Down under what????
Arach, do you remember your dome of water and the water above and the water below? What is the definition of "water"?
Consider the following:1)Woman at the Well. "Living Water".
2) Acts 1:5=For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." (Water from beneath vs Water from above? )3) 1 John 5:6-9--This is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.Natural water and spiritual water. Two springs. Two sources.

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Does it take Divine Wisdom to figure out a Prophet?

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That's not what I requested. You have not shown me that God expects the common man to receive divine wisdom to understand the prophets.I am quite able to understand what the prophets you shared meant, but it doesn't fulfill my request.You also haven't shown me that the Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

If the scripture is warning us to beware of prophets who prophecy out of their own imagination (and/or spirit) than it appears that the common man needs to be aware of the difference between a Divine message and a vain one.
Does God expect us to understand?
1) Who was He speaking to in the O.T.? Jews, right? What does this scripture mean to you? To me, this foretells of a time when Gentiles will understand God better than Jews do. What does God expect? How does He expect His people to understand? I believe that God expects His people to know Him. By so doing, they will receive the Divine wisdom to understand.As for the Jews in the N.T., they did not believe that God was Jesus Father. They could not comprehend such a thing. As such, they needed to ask Him who his Father was. To them, He surely MUST have had a natural Father.He turned it around on them. He asked THEM who their Father was.He said that if they saw Him, they would see the Father. (Our Father...who art...) They became angry and declared that Abraham was their Father.

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You asked what Jesus meant.

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Not really what I asked.

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That's a pretty broad accusation there. Can you show me what you mean specifically?

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Here's your specific: No it isn't. Mankind is born of woman, God is not. None of the words in Genesis 3:15 or the story speaks of a promised messiah and you have yet to show me that they do without theological gymnastics.

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I would think it would be a big start simply to point out that it is traditionally understood to be the case.

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Jesus wasn't much for tradition overriding God's word. If you truly believe that the Bible is God's word, then read His words.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France