Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

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I've seen nothing in the Bible that supports splitting prophecy as you have done.

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I haven't done it, I've merely mentioned that that is the case for some scriptures that refer both to a near and a far fulfillment. I'll have to work on listing them later. Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 9:6 are only about the Messiah. Zechariah is only about the Messiah. But there are others. I'll find them.

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He upbraided the Pharisees over and over again for following rules that were in the Oral Law. That's how we know how Jesus regarded the Oral Law.

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You assume.Were the points of their disagreement truly in the Oral Law?Bottom line, you don't know. You don't have enough information to make an assessment.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Just because you say the prophecy is split, does not mean that God supports the splitting of prophecy.Where does God demonstrate or say that prophecies are to be splintered into various timeframes?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Y'all are dragging this into the NT.Paul is not a concern, since he had not appointed himself an apostle during the ministry of Jesus. His letters are after the ministry of Jesus.The items presented as supposedly messianic in the "Five Books of Moses" have not been shown to be messianic except through creative license and Christian tradition, not actual wording in the OT.And for those who like to throw in the following-the-spirit-and-not-the-letter scenerio to support creative interpretation, haven't shown me that this is a teaching of the OT God or Jesus either.Nothing from the Psalms has been shown to be prophetic or messianic, that I remember, except with the above creative license.The submissions from the Prophets still haven't proven their claim that God used double fulfillment, split prophecies (that's a new one) or that the common people need divine wisdom to understand what the prophet is saying. Too many gymnastics in the prophetic submissions.Show me the words people!

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

no, this is my point. i'm fine with jesus being a jewish reformist. but judaism is NOT ritual adherence to the laws. jews adhere to the law of god out of respect, duty, and LOVE. they feel they owe god one, for getting them out of egypt. but it starts here: when jesus said this, he was trying to get the jewish leader back on track. there were some that had missed the point: the couldn't see the forest for the trees. all of the law of various rituals are all about loving and respecting god. if you don't love and respect god, there's no reason to do them. and all of the laws of inter-personal relations have to do with this. jesus was not being radical when he said this. he was just trying to swing judaism back to where it should be.paul, on the other hand, is misreprenting judaism. his experience of judaism seems to be confined to a very biased view of writings of the gospels (ones we probably don't have, btw). where jesus was trying to CORRECT judaism, paul was trying to COUNTER judaism. no, faith's statement doesn't include paul. faith said the original 12 chosen by jesus. paul is 13, evem if you count acts. (matthais replaces judas, if memory serves)but i do think the paul story is very suspicious. but i think legend is going to start another thread for that.

I thought that this was one of those things that did not need to be explained. That it was a given. You seem not to agree. Very well then, do you believe that there is a destiny in life for each individual? If so, do you yourself feel compelled to practice a form of religion or to have a spiritual relationship with God in any way?If not, how can you understand "spirit"? If so, explain as best as you can how one successfully lives out a life of destiny. Who decides how to act/behave/live? Is it a personal decision? Who or what influences us personally? Is it a set of rules?
Who wrote the Talmud? Who inspired the writers?What is your personal idea of God? It is one thing to attempt to explain spiritual ideas to you, but if you yourself have a different idea of who or what God is and who or what "spirit" is, tell me your idea so that I may understand the place that you are coming from.You are a Genealogist. right? As you examine the Bible, are you interested in finding a better way to understand God or are you toying with some "study" of the origen of religious ideas and concepts??While I respect your approach from an educated perspective, I can say that you will never understand spiritual reality through a rational approach any more than a psychologist could ever hope to know me personally by studying the opinions of people who know me and monitoring my brainwaves!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-19-2005 03:12 PM

no, i read that very carefully. jesus seems to be referring to the talmud with his argument. for instance, i'm sure it was ruled long ago that if one of your animals falls into a hole on the sabbath, getting it out of the hole doesn't count as work. that sounds like a talmudic ruling to me.for instance, according to the talmud, you're allowed to do certain "work" like things in your own home on the sabbath. putting away the dishes, making the bed, etc. you're allowed to put a wire or string around your home to designate that as a sort of "safe zone." then so is the talmud. they are the same thing, from the same god.

yes, god said to tell you "paul lies." it's not an issue of NOT understanding. it's an issue of understanding. the jews understand their scriptures. the christians DID NOT understand the jewish scripture. paul repeatedly misidentified both the purpose of judaism AND christianity. and people now treat paul's opinions as if they were god's new set of rules.judaism is not about adherence to rules. the law is not a curse. it's a BLESSING. it is part of an agreement between jews and god that signifies them as god's own people.and now look at the nt authors. they can't even read hebrew poetry right. matthew has jesus ride into jerusalem on two different animals at once because he doesn't understand parallelism. because they were wrong. jesus was a jewish reformist. the views i hold tend to be those of, suprise, reform judaism. really?

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1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him

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tell me, as a jew who by all christian accounts held steadfastly to the law of god, how would jesus have worn his hair? great! let's rule out the old testament too. so far, we're left with matthew, mark, luke/acts, john, and revelation. any other books we wanna hack out of the bible while we're at it? no, but i do find the letter interesting. i like the bible. i enjoy studying it. i think it's outright foolish just to ignore it, on the a ccount of one man saying god told him it was bad.

i beg to differ. the mormons are a heck of a lot more mainstream than evangelical christians. starting to get the picture here? i suspect not. no, he clearly wrote alot. there's a difference.tell me, according to jesus, who did he leave his church to?

Paul lies? Interesting assertion...show me a couple of whoppers that he told. So what is your opinion of the Messianic Jewish belief? Testimony of Keith Brofsky

it was a joke. it was also to prove a point: anyone can say "god told me that..."although a few of his misrepresentations of the jewish faith have been shown in this thread. this isn't really the place for it. that paul is not the messiah. i'm fine with jesus being a jewish messiah. but everything else really doesn't fit too well.

That is exactly the point.Jesus was termed Rabbi, teacher. And if you examine the role of a Rabbi, it is not very similar to the Christian concept of priest. It is rather half scolar/archivist, the other half judicial, a legalistic position, one who examines the evidence and then makes a ruling.Jesus relationship with the Jewish heirarchy as well as with everyone he met was IMHO very Talmudic. In particular, to understand what was going on between Jesus and the Church Elders you really need to have read the Baba Kama, Metzia and Bathra. (don't let some of our members get into the last, the discussions would never end)

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

reading a verse out of context and applying it to something is NOT valid. isaiah 7:14 is about a young woman (isaiah's wife, actually) who will give birth to a child named immanuel. this is the sign that the prophesy is true. the prophesy is that ahaz will beat israel and aram by the time the child is 13.there is no double fulfillment. jesus doesn't fulfill it at all. his name is not immanuel, the verse doesn't say virgin in anything but but the septuagint, and it's not even a prophesy. the prophesy is the bit that follows.not valid, not applicable.

interesting tidbit, jesus is one of only two people called "rabbi" anywhere in the bible. john is the other. yes, but i do not believe jesus was LEGITIMATELY called a rabbi. he was not ordained, or part of the church in any way. his disciples called him that out of respect for him and his knowledge of scripture.

That's certainly possible. It could also be a functional reference, a description of what he did as opposed to position he held.The other issue is that we know so little about Jesus life. We only get small glipses of it and then only highly filtered. The fact that major people from among the Pharisees and other religious leaders agreed to discuss such issues with him seems to imply some recognition of his status at at least that level.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion