Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

the other bit is that we don't know just how filtered and made up the stories really are. we could be chasing the wind.

This scenerio has nothing to do with individual spirituality.It deals with real meaning; true intention (to follow the spirit if not the letter of the law) of what is written.Unfortunately when it comes to discussions concerning supposed prophecies, common sense seems to go out the window.What has been presented in this thread as writings about Jesus, share no resemblence to the supposed messianic meaning attached to them.You have yet to show me that God requires the common man to use the holy spirit to understand the writings differently than what the words actually say.I find it fascinating that because I don't buy into Christian Theology, dogma, or traditions; that you assume I don't have a relationship with God and that I am not lead by the Holy Spirit.You don't seem to believe that the Holy Spirit would show me that the words speak to the audience of the time?

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I can say that you will never understand spiritual reality through a rational approach any more than a psychologist could ever hope to know me personally by studying the opinions of people who know me and monitoring my brainwaves!

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Exactly!And that is what you are asking me to do. The NT consists of writings by people who may or may not have known Jesus.Theology, dogma, and tradition are definitely the opinions of people.So if you want to show me that my spiritual insight is incorrect, you need to make it visual.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Here's an example of a prophecy which must be split into different occasions...
Matthew 24"I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.""For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ' "Eventhough both verses are placed close together, they refer to 2 different timeframes.

Immanuel means 'God with us'. Many people have given Jesus a God status. For example, Thomas addressed Jesus, 'My Lord and my God...'Even today, many Christians worship Jesus as if He is God.If you take a look at your telephone directory, you will realize that there are many people named Immanuel. It's really silly to assume that Messianic prophecies can be fulfilled by the whims and fancies of parents who name their children.When interpretting the bible, try to search for an interpretation that gives an unique solution.This message has been edited by peaceharris, 04-20-2005 12:07 AM

immanuel means god IS with us. it does not indicate that person bearing the name is god himself. it means that god is on our side. idolatry. no image of god should be worshipped, and jesus is made in the image of god. you're missing the point. the prophesy is not regarding immanuel. the prophesy is regarding the war between judah and aram/israel. immanuel is merely a time-keeping device. the next verse or so promises fulfillment of the prophesy before he knows to choose the good and refuse evil, which indicates a passage into manhood, like a bar mitzvah. as for immanuel, he is not the messiah. he is not god. he's simply a sign that god will be on their side of the war, and will help ahaz win his war. try first to acknowledge what the verse actually says, and the context it's put in. in this case, it's not a messianic prophesy, and cannot have anything to do with jesus. it's not a matter of interpretation. it's a matter of what the text says.

yes, they are not part of the same prophecy. his disciples ask him what the end will be like. the verse about the destruction of the temple in jerusalems comes BEFORE they ask that question.what you have to realize is that chapter and verse numbers are TOTALLY artificial. they are not in the original texts at all. and so chapter headings are occasionally in the wrong place.try readin matthew 23:37-24:2 as one section, and then pick up again in 24:3. make more sense that way? the tail of 23 is a lament over jerusalem, a description of her crimes. the first part of 24 is her punishment, the destruction of the temple. it has nothing to do at all with the next bit of 24 that deals with the end times.you can find examples of this all over the bible. starting on page one, genesis 1 should really go to about 2 verse four and a half. but this is not two parts of the same prophesy.isaiah 7:14 is one part of a prophesy that regards the defeat of israel and aram by the hand of ahaz, with the help of god. the sign that this will come true, and device that lets ahaz know when it will happen is the birth of a child named immanuel, whom most scholars believe to be isaiah's own son. this is not split into different occasions, it's one single prophesy, and there is NOTHING prophetic about isaiah's wife giving birth. (she was probably pregnant at the time)

scribes, recording the discussion of various rabbis throughout jewish history. you mean the rabbis? god, of course. i'm a bit of both. i think the bible is really only as good as it's authors. it lets me know how other people over several thousand years thought of their god, the one i happen to believe in. it's not always correct, or always consistent. but it doesn't need to be. i'm comfortable with discarding the bits of theology that don't agree with the ones i like.but i do think that some of the opinions happen to be valid, and it can occasionally be a good window or tool to understanding more about god. of course, it is also not the only thing. and the book itself is not the sum total of god. and should not be treated as such. i've been known to analyze my friends psychologically. i know them quite well, sometimes better than they know themselves.but no, an educated, rational approach is not everything. but i do think it is a good thing. god gave us brains as well as spirits. i don't think he meant for us to use one and not the other. if god wanted sheep, he wouldn't have made humans. he'd have made more sheep.

Baaaahh! I suppose you are right about that!

lol. right.

So, do you think that Isaiah 7 reads the same way as Matthew 24?Jesus is talking to his disciples in two different timeframes, two different subjects. This is not a continuous conversation.The sign of the child in Isaiah 7 is very clearly for Ahaz and the description of what will happen after the child is born is very clearly for Ahaz.The sign of the child does not stand on its own for another timeframe (300 years later). The description of what will happen also does not stand on its own without the sign.Matthew 24 is not a split prophecy as Faith was disecting Isaiah 7. Matthew 24 is two obviously separate prophecies.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Jesus' teaching in the entire chapter of Matthew 23 is all about the Pharisee's literal external obedience to made up rules while ignoring the spiritual meaning of God's law.

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Matthew 23 deals with hypocrisy. That's why Jesus called them hypcrites.

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Paul uses the words letter and spirit in these passages:

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What you are missing is that Paul is speaking of the Law, not prophesy.Both of these deal with the Law, not prophesy. Prophesy is not law.God has not shown that prophesy is to be understood any other way than as it was spoken and by the audience listening.Prophesy serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

When I ask young adults the question, "Where is God right now?"
The ones who don't seem to be aware of God will say "He is in Heaven."
The ones who are a bit more aware will say "He is all over".
The ones with the knowing smile will say "He is in my heart."
Truly for them, God is with us.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-20-2005 10:59 PM

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"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."-- Anne DillardEvery tool carries with it the spirit by which it had been created.
-- Werner Karl Heisenberg: (1901-1976) German physicistI read the newspaper avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction.
-- Aneurin Bevan: (1897-1960) English politician

Which, of course, shows an ignorance about the Jewish names. Often, Jewish names are somewhat like titles. That is just one of them, and a name is just a name. Christians are reading too much into the way Jewish people name people.

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As you examine the Bible, are you interested in finding a better way to understand God or are you toying with some "study" of the origen of religious ideas and concepts??

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I understand God.Christians make claims that are supposedly supported by the NT and the OT.The NT authors make claims that are supposedly supported by the OT.I examine the claims of man.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Understanding can be a personal subjective truth claim. If many "subjects" share such an understanding, a religion can be founded. Both you and I are interested in the claims of man. I find it intriguing when claims are made based on human wisdom. Personally, I find it much more useful to defend the Bible rather than to attack it, but valid critiques are OK as long as it is understood that the text is impartial.Some of us fervantly believe that God inspired the text. Others, although claiming to be wise, challenge this belief. I strive to arrive at a common ground with these folks, because if they claim to understand God as I claim to understand God, the fact that we disagree tells me that:1) The Bible cannot be used as our commonly agreed source of Gods imparted wisdom.2) Only through dialogue can we hope to understand, if not agree with each other.3) If God is actively furthering His message through us, we will agree on Him as the source of wisdom.4) If, however, God becomes a relative concept, it tells me that subjective religion is a false hope. If our own wisdom is the object of our Faith, God cannot be God as we have not allowed His wisdom to supercede our own. Tell me who God is.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-22-2005 08:06 AM