Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

I have noticed that it has been asserted that Hebrew was the language of OT, or Hebrew word is used in support of claim/s made such as "Almah= virgin" etc., implyin that OT is/was in Hebrew.The pre-exilic language used by the Israelites was a Canaanite dialect not known as Hebrew. The Phoenicians (or, more accurately, the Canaanites) invented the first true alphabets c. 1500 B.C.E., based on letters instead of descriptive images. All successive alphabets are indebted to and derivative of this Canaanites accomplishment. (See Israel Wilfinson, Tarikh al-Lugat as- Samiyya (History of Semitic Languages), Dar al-Qalam, Beruit, Lebanon, PO BOX 3874, ND, p. 54)In general culture the Canaanites are no less remarkable, and not a little of that culture was taken over by the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not great builders, nor very apt in the arts and crafts. As a result they had to rely heavily on the Canaanites in this field, and in others as well. Whatever language the Hebrews spoke before settling in Palestine, it was a dialect of Canaanite that became their language after the settlement. (Dictionary of the Bible p. 121)In fact OT itself never refers to the Jewish language as Hebrew, as illustrated by these following two verses from Isaiah 36 {KJV}:36:11 Then said Eliakim and Shebna and Joah unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, unto thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand it: and speak not to us in the Jews' language, in the ears of the people that are on the wall.36:13 Then Rabshakeh stood, and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and said, Hear ye the words of the great king, the king of Assyria.The same phrase is found in the NWT, The Holy Bible from the Ancient Eastern Text, RSV, and the Arabic edition. These last three substitutes Aramaic for Syrian language, but none of them designates the other as Hebrew. We find the same incident and/or same expression in 2 King 18:26 and 2 Chronicle 32:18.2 Kings 1818:26 Then said Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebna, and Joah, unto Rabshakeh, Speak, I pray thee, to thy servants in the Syrian language; for we understand it: and talk not with us in the Jews' language in the ears of the people that are on the wall.2 Chronicles 3232:18 Then they cried with a loud voice in the Jews' speech unto the people of Jerusalem that were on the wall, to affright them, and to trouble them; that they might take the city.In Isaiah 19:18 {KJV} we read the following:19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.The above citations unanimously agree on this phrasing; surely if Hebrew had been founded by then the OT would bear testimony to it, instead of vague wording about the Jews language or the language of Canaan. Given that the text makes the reference to the language of Canaan generically, which simply put, is Canaanite; we can conclude that the Israelites did not poses a unique tongue at the time of the Divided Kingdom of Israel and Judah.In fact the word Hebrew was indeed in existence, but it predated the Israelites and did not refer to anything remotely Jewish. The words Ibri (Habiru) and Ibrani (Hebrew) were in usage even before 2000 B.C.E. and referred to a group of Arab tribes from the northern reaches of the Arabian Peninsula, in the Syrian desert. The appellation spread to other Arab tribes in the area until it became a synonym for son of desert. Cuneiform and Pharaonic texts from before the Israelites also use such words as Ibri, Habiri, Habiru, Khabiru and Abiru. In this sense the term Ibrani, as described to Abraham in the Bible, means a member of the Abiru (or nomadic Arab tribes), of which he was a member. The phrase Ibrit, denoting Jews, was coined later on by the rabbis in Palestine. (See Israel Wilfinson, Tarikh al-Lugat as- Samiyya (History of Semitic Languages), Dar al-Qalam, Beruit, Lebanon, PO BOX 3874, ND, pp. 73-79)So what language OT was written in? From the information cited above we see a process of scriptural evolution: Canaanite, Aramaic (Assyrian), and finally square, which later on came to be regarded as Hebrew. We can conclude that prior to their return from Babylonian exile in 538 B.C.E.; Israelites did not have any means of written communication distinctly their own since pre-exilic Jewish script was Canaanite (Ibid p. 91). Ernst Wrthwein writes on pp. 1-2 of his book The Text of the Old Testament (2nd Edition, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1995):When Aramaic became the predominant tongue of the ancient Near East, the Jews adopted this language and soon assumed its script as well-which was then known as Assyrian.Interestingly Wrthwein annexes the Canaanite alphabet by declaring. This was the Phoenician-Old Hebrew script, the ancestor of all the alphabets of past and present. (Wrthwein p. 2)

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

I don't believe I have overlooked anything significant.I am sorry you have nothing to say in response.dbThis message has been edited by doctrbill, 04-28-2005 04:30 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I have done several searches at torah.org. I do like their lessons. I haven't gone through the text lessons though.I found several items in the "Women's Perspective" that were interesting.

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However, the lessons it teaches is not only for that generation, but for every generation.

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Kinda like don't repeat their mistakes?

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The signs are mainly for the audience to insure them that the words are coming from God. A prediction for something 600 years in the future would therefore be unverifable to the people who were the intended target of the sin.

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And the OT supports what you are saying, but it sure doesn't support what Christianity dishes out concerning prophecy.Needless to say I was not popular in Bible Study. Thanks for the info.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Kinda like don't repeat their mistakes?

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Pretty much. Of course, one of the ways many Jewish people view their scripture is not so much as it exactly the dictates of god (although that is included to some degree), but it is the story of a people search for god, including the warts and all of the people trying to find god. The leaders are not perfect.. yet they can find favor with god, never the less.

OK. This may take a little patience on the reader's part. I looked up every place in the Hebrew scripture the word "Almah" occurs. The following is every verse it occurs in, all seven of them, as it appears in English. The link with every verse takes you to a page that has the Hebrew text as well as the Greek Septuagint for that verse.I checked the Greek Septuagint for each verse to see where the Hebrew "Almah" was translated into the Greek "Parthenos." ONLY Genesis 24:43 and Isaiah 7:14 are translated "parthenos." I don't know what the other Greek words are, two translated "virgins" in English in the Song of Songs, and others translated "maid" etc. I tried to figure it out but got bogged down in the Greek characters.I recognize the Greek word "parthenos" in the Greek text though -- look for an 8-letter word that begins with the Greek letter pi -- so I can tell if it isn't there. This is what I'd ask you to do, to verify that ONLY these two verses were translated from the Hebrew "Almah" to the Greek "parthenos"There is, as I've conceded, some ambiguity for all the words, but when "parthenos" is translated into English it is ALWAYS translated "virgin," never "maid" or "maiden" or "young woman" or the like. (There are many places in the New Testament where "parthenos" is used, to describe Mary particularly, and it is always translated "virgin" in the English. Apparently this is also the case from Greek to the specific word for "virgin" in Latin as well.)In the Song of Songs, the Greek word used for "Almah" is not "parthenos" -- I don't know what the word in Greek is, maybe you can figure it out, but it is not "parthenos," and yet it was translated "virgins" in the English. (This does not refer to the Shulamite, but to the virgins of Jerusalem.)"Almah" in all the OTHER verses here is NOT translated "parthenos" in the Septuagint and is NOT translated "virgin" in English. (The number #05959 in the text is the Strong's Concordance number for the Hebrew word "Almah" which is the Hebrew word the English was translated from ):============
Genesis 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water ; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin 05959 cometh forth to draw [water], and I say to her, Give me , I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;"Almah" here IS translated "parthenos" in the Septuagint (13th word from the bottom, starts with the Greek letter 'pi' if you need a clue):
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible=========
Exdodus 2:8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go . And the maid 05959 went and called the child's mother ."Almah" in THIS verse is NOT translated "parthenos" in the Septuagint:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible===========
Psalms 68:25 The singers went before , the players on instruments [followed] after among [them were] the damsels 05959 playing with timbrelsAlmah here is NOT translated "parthenos" in the Septuagint. It is translated
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible============
Proverbs 30:19 The way of an eagle in the air ; the way of a serpent upon a rock ; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea ; and the way of a man with a maid 05959."Almah" in this verse i NOT translated "parthenos"
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible============
Sgs 1:3 Because of the savour 07381 of thy good 02896 ointments 08081 thy name 08034 [is as] ointment 08081 poured forth 07324 , therefore do the virgins 05959 love 0157 thee."Almah" in this verse is NOT translated "parthenos"
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible================
Sgs 6:8 There are threescore queens and fourscore concubines and virgins 05959 without number"Almah" in this verse was NOT translated "parthenos" in the Septuagint
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible============
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign ; Behold, a virgin 05959 shall conceive and bear a son , and shall call his name ImmanuelAlmah in this verse IS translated "parthenos" in the Greek: 10th word from the top:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible============================================{LATE EDIT to add link: "Parthenos" in the NEW TestamentThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2005 02:17 AM

See my Message 215

rather inconsistent, don't you think?especially if "almah" doesn't mean "virgin" in hebrew.added by edit, regarding context: there is nothing in the genesis verse to mandate "virgin" as the correct rendering. it's simply refering to a young girl still of her father's house. which, granted, SHOULD be a virgin, but that's not the point of the verse.similarly, in isaiah, the bit about the virgin concieving is not neccessary to the prophesy, which regards beating israel and aram. there is no reason (or indication) that the child will come from a virgin. actually the indication is that it will come from isaiah's wife, who would not be a virgin.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-29-2005 02:41 AM

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אָרַח

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rather inconsistent, don't you think?
especially if "almah" doesn't mean "virgin" in hebrew.

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I don't think you are grasping the point here. The point is that it CAN literally mean "virgin." I'm demonstrating that the Jewish translators of the Septuagint considered it to have that meaning in the case of the only two times they translated "almah" by the Greek word "parthenos," because ALL occurrences of "parthenos" in the New Testament are translated "virgin" --probably in every language but at least in Latin and English.

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added by edit, regarding context: there is nothing in the genesis verse to mandate "virgin" as the correct rendering. it's simply refering to a young girl still of her father's house. which, granted, SHOULD be a virgin, but that's not the point of the verse.

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The Jewish Septuagint translators disagree with you, and chose the Greek word that most consistently means a literal virgin over the other Greek words for a young woman. Are you more knowledgeable in the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek language than they were?An explanation I've found for this choice wherever this verse has been discussed is that previously in this chapter Rebecca is specifically identified as a virgin, with the use of the Hebrew term "betulah" in that case. So that the Septuagint translators chose the Greek for "virgin" in the later verse based on this: In any case, "parthenos" / "virgin" is the term the Septuagint translators chose, and you are arguing with these highly knowledgeable translators, not with me.

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similarly, in isaiah, the bit about the virgin concieving is not neccessary to the prophesy, which regards beating israel and aram. there is no reason (or indication) that the child will come from a virgin. actually the indication is that it will come from isaiah's wife, who would not be a virgin.

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Again, the Septuagint translators disagree with you as does the entire history of Christian translation, and the entire context of the New Testament.

I thought you might like this.In "The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia and Scriptural Dictionary" 1902, they have the following definition of virgin.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Faith,Whether Almah means virgin or not is a moot point if you can't show that Jesus fulfilled the rest of the prophecy as I asked.Please address my question in Message 200.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Not moot at all as it speaks to how the Jewish translators understood the word and great Bible scholars over the millennia as well. Whatever the best understanding of the passage is, that part justifies the reading of traditional Christianity all by itself. What I think about it can't be the determining factor after all. I may yet have an answer for you about this passage: I have been studying commentaries and they agree that contrary to what I had decided about it, it is after all a passage with a double fulfillment, the one fulfillment about a girl who is a virgin at the time of the writing but will soon be married, and the other reaching forward to the true virgin conception of Jesus. But I have to study it further because there's a lot of history about Ahaz' military operations I have to digest. Though I'm sure it won't make a difference to you, at least I will then know the right answer for my own purposes.

If the Jewish translators into the greek thought that Almah was virgin, and used parthenos, why did they use the word 'parthenos' for Dinah in Genesis 34 after she was raped?If Parthenos in Greek is virgin, why did Sophlocles, the Greek writer, use it to describe a girl who was exposing her child on the mountainWhy did Pindar, an ancient greek writer, use the word Parthnos to describe a womon who was a non-virgin in Antistrophe 2?Why did homer use it in the Illiad to describe a girl who was a non-virgin??Because Parthenos of that time period did not exclusively mean virgin,and therefore, you are using misinformation.

Re: Message 215 You have been shown that this is not true. But, let's try again:Here, St. Paul discusses wives and virgins, i.e. married women and unmarried women. The context defines the meaning of 'virgin.' Here's another: Now, let's look at this in another version (you're not a KJV Onlyist are you?): And another. 1Corinthians 7:28: There are more examples. Seek and ye shall find. I did this research at the Blue Letter Bible site, to which you often refer. It is very useful.Remember, In English, the word 'virgin' may be taken at least two ways: Even more persuasive, however, is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Note what he gives as the FIRST definition:a virgin This I discovered when I followed the link you provided.***************************************************************Re: Message 218 At least three times in scripture, bethulah appears with its definition (never been laid). Alamah is never defined this way. Another Hebrew word for girl - naarah - 'damsel' appears several times with the word bethulah to indicate that the damsel in question has never been laid. Alamah is never associated with bethulah this way.If any scripture should have included bethulah AND its definition, it wouild be Isaiah 7:14. If any word for girl should have been associated with bethulah, then it should have been Almah at Isaiah 7:14. But none of this is so. And thus, Isaiah 7:14 fails the 'viriginity' test on several counts.Now ...The most famous "PARTHENOS," was Athena Parthenos, AKA - "Athena the Virgin" or "Athena the Young Woman." It is she for whom The Parthenon is named. She was a goddess who never married. She did, however, take lovers. Yes, she had sex with other gods and still retained her title, "The Virgin," because: Parthenos did not mean: never had sex. We might wish to assume that a young, unmarried woman has never had sex. It would be the polite thing to do. But we cannot be sure, can we? At any rate her age, weight, and sexual experience are probably removed extraneous asterisks to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 04-29-2005 04:15 PM

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

except that parthenos doesn't exactly mean virgin either. it means "young woman." the implication of the word is generally virgin, but as ramoss pointed out, it's often used in instances where the person it's describing obviously isn't.

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parthenos , Lacon. parsenos Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). h,

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A. maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; hai athliai p. emai my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302 ; also gun parthenos Hes. Th.514 ; p. kora, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); thugatr p. X.Cyr.4.6.9 ; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. gun, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65.
2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530.
3. Parthenos, h, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17 ; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103 ; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48,54 (Neapolis in Thrace); hai hierai p., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; hai Hestiades p. Id.Cic.19; simply, hai p. D.H.2.66.
4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc.
5. = kor 111, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7.
II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, parthenon psuchn echn E.Hipp. 1006 , cf. Porph. Marc.33 ; mitr p. Epigr.Gr.319 : metaph., p. pg A.Pers.613 .
III. as masc., parthenos, ho, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4.
IV. p. g Samian earth (cf. parthenios 111 ), PMag.Berol.2.57.

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it means unmarried woman, not neccessarily a virgin, and reflects the idea of chastity, and SOMETIMES virginity. if they'd wanted to render the idea of virginity, they could have used athiktos, adiakoreutos, akratos, or akratos, which literally and ONLY mean virgin. but it's still not a literal rendering. see that "damsel?" that's almah. yes, rebecca was a virgin, but there is no reason to translate almah as virgin, only betulah. it's not my fault they read it wrong. but that is part of what we're debating here, actually. matthew is pretty good at misreading hebrew, he does it alot. (i mean, he has jesus ride into jerusalem on two animals at once because he can't understand parallelism)

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אָרַח

It doesn't always mean "virgin" as I've said. Which verse of chapter 34 has "parthenos" in it? I was careful to point out that ALL the terms in question are ambiguous to some extent, including "parthenos," that is, that all may be used in different senses depending on the context, and that parthenos does not *always* mean a literal virgin. It is up to the discretion of the translators, who I would assume knew a LOT more about the uses of the terms than you and I do. What I said, pretty clearly I believe, is that "parthenos" is the Greek word that is used when what is meant IS strictly a literal virgin. Because for some reason he thought it applied best to the context. Again, the point is that it is the word used when a literal virgin is meant though it may be used in other contexts too. No, again, I have NOT said that it "exclusively means virgin." You are not reading carefully. I said that it has other meanings depending on context, but that WHEN literal virgin is meant, it is the word that is used.