Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country?

and your evidence of this is?

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*not an actual doctor

Welcome Canadian Steve. How refreshing to have someone at least partially on my side in this.I'm aware there are some democratically minded Muslim groups, which I've acknowledged with my reference to moderate Muslims, but I'm also aware that Islam itself contains the directives for violent jihad against the "infidel" for anyone who takes it at that level, and there are no guarantees that anyone is *not* going to take it at that level since it's there to be so taken.You posted the same link I posted by the way. It's a good link, probably the most thorough on the web, but despite its thorough documentation I see it's been treated as mere trash by at least one expert here.

Where are you getting the minority/majority idea? And who is it that is "disputing their facts and expertise" and why take THEM seriously?The people you called wackos -- thank you for the apology -- are experts on Islam, who are in fact "directly involved in studying these issues" as you put it, scholars who are well known for their work. They give many checkable facts. To dismiss them so abruptly doesn't say a lot for your interest in discovering the truth of the situation. I would expect a coup, an overthrow, and I would expect it to start with the revisionist work of the Supreme Court that is capable of changing our laws overnight without recourse to the legislature or the will of the people in any form.{EDIT: I'm sure we aren't yet at the point where this is possible but with the reign of politically correct sympathy for Islam, the general inability to see through the machinations of a group like CAIR, the hatred of our Christian roots, and other forms of ignorance of our true situation, I can easily see it coming in the not too distant future.{EDIT: The separation of church and state is rigorously enforced (and UnConstitutionally I believe) specifically against Christianity. That feeds Islam.A TRULY moderate Muslim who TRULY respected the institutions of America, no problem. I simply have my doubts that there are many of these, and those who exist find themselves threatened into silence by the violent jihadists, the Wahabbis, threats of violent reprisals for what is considered their abdication of the truths of Islam. Assuming things exactly as you present them, with no subterfuge involved, fantasy though it be, the Muslim of course. See above.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-06-2005 06:20 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 06-06-2005 06:29 PM

Just a hint to help you find them - all those people who, when you find out they're Muslims, you're a little surprised because you had no idea? They're the moderates.Every Muslim I've ever known has been a moderate. That's a lot of Muslims. I've never met a Muslim fundamentalist. (Probably not too many in Minnesota or Missouri.)

CAIR people pose as moderates too, how would you know?

So do nutcases like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the wackos in Colorado Springs.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The difference is that they don't follow a religion that preaches killing infidels such as yourself.

Actually, and maybe Andya will correct me if I'm wrong, infidel is the general translation of kafir which is Arabic for denier.Kafir does NOT include Christians or Jews. The term for them is Ahl-al-Kitab, People of the book.Before you say it, no...militant Islamics wouldn't necessarily make this distinction. You, however, did not make any distinction between militant Islamics and the general populace that follows the religion of Islam.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"select * from USERS where CLUE > 0http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

I wouldn't rather have my head sawn off than see this nation go on another day, so could you ask your God to put it off about 100 more years no matter how depraved and anti-God the U.S. of A gets? Or do you feel more of an allegience to your God than your country?

Well Faith, so far you have not shown any evidence that Islam wants to kill Infidels like me or that I would even be considered as an Infidel.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Allegiance to my God REQUIRES me to have allegiance to my country, unlike allegiance to Allah.

Were you watching Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer when Jerry Falwell was on there with Jesse Jackson.Falwell said that we should "Blow them away in the name of the Lord."
Maybe he didn't mean infidels, but I'm not exactly sure what he meant.I can't find the transcript, but here is someone laughing at it:
Atheism and AgnosticismI'm sure the 9/11 terrorists wanted to "blow them away in the name of the Lord."

If you aren't Muslim, you are an infidel.
Like if you are not Jewish, you are a gentile.But Infidel is more general I think, not specific to Islam.Anyway, to a Muslim, you are an infidel.

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The people you called wackos....

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Which I admit was uncalled for, and for which I have already apologized.-

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Where are you getting the minority/majority idea?

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From the fact that we learned a little about Islam when I was in school, in magazine articles written both by Muslims and about Muslims by non-Muslims, in books I've read that spoke of Islam, by speaking with several actual Muslims that I knew, from living for three years in country that was divided half Christian and half Muslim. In all this time I have never read or heard anyone say how Islam was bent on world domination, or how it is Islamic to kill unbelievers. The few, very few, articles that I read warning about the "grave threat posed by Islam" have been editorials -- opinion articles, written by pundits whose job it is to express their own opinions on a very wide range of topics.Even if I am wrong, I think it is very understandable that, considering the very, very few articles I have seen expressing fear of Islam, this appears to be a minority opinion. That is why I am asking you (for the third time, I believe) whether you can substantiate your claims that Islam in general (as opposed to a fringe minority of fanatics) is a force to be feared.More to the point, I really would like some sort of substantiation why, regardless of what "official Islam" says, why I should distrust and disbelieve all the Muslims I have known, lived with, and worked with when they all expressed good will and tolerance for everyone.-

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I would expect a coup, an overthrow, and I would expect it to start with the revisionist work of the Supreme Court that is capable of changing our laws overnight without recourse to the legislature or the will of the people in any form.

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A coup? We're speaking of an election, just like any other election, except that one of the candidates is a Muslim.--

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A TRULY moderate Muslim who TRULY respected the institutions of America, no problem.

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Wow, I admit that this was unexpected. That speaks poorly of me, I guess.Now, again, why do you think that these people are in a minority? Do you have any evidence that substantates that these people are in a minority? Especially among American and European Muslims.

gnojek,Did you see my msg #83 concerning the meaning of infidel/kafir as opposed to ahl al Kitb/people of the book?

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"select * from USERS where CLUE > 0http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com