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Author Topic:   Reasons why the NeoCons aren't real Republicans
Monk
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 136 of 301 (222564)
07-08-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by crashfrog
07-08-2005 7:20 AM


Re: Enemy Combatants
crashfrog writes:
But to suggest that members of an irregular insurgency have such a unique status that they fall outside of even the universal human rights granted to all individuals regardless of status in the Geneva Conventions is an unsupportable legal fiction. It's an outright lie, and it betrays a staggering ignorance of international wartime law. It's bad enough coming from someone like you. That our government officials also parrot this ridiculous, dangerous lie is one more reason we're losing the war on terror.
I never said any of this. I said they are unlawful enemy combatants. That’s what I said crash, nothing more. There was no suggestion to anything. I was merely pointing out they are not criminals. So you take this one sentence from me and run it into all sorts of things. An outright lie, legal fiction, staggering ignorance, dangerous lies, and the cause that we are losing the war. Amazing.
That’s a mighty powerful phrase unlawful enemy combatants. Those three words from me caused you to jump up and launch yourself into this diatribe. My statement is correct. They are not criminals. You can argue semantics if you want, but here is definition from Wikipedia along with an analysis that I agree with:
quote:
A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII Article 4), persons waging war must have the following characteristics to be protected by the laws of war:
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews [of civil ships and aircraft], who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
Wikipedia goes on to provide some clarification that I agree with:
quote:
These terms thus divide people in a war zone into two classes. Those in armies and militias and the like (lawful combatants), and then those who are not. Those in armies and militias and the like have the right to be treated as prisoners of war upon capture and those not in armies and militias do not have the right to be treated as prisoners of war upon capture.
The critical distinction is that a "lawful combatant" (defined above) cannot be held personally responsible for acts prosecuting that combat, unless they commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. And if captured, they have to be treated as prisoners of war - basically they can be detained (more humane than killing them), but must be provided for, treated with respect, and so on.
If there is any doubt about whether an alleged combatant is a "lawful combatant" then they must be held as a Prisoner of War until their status has been determined by "a competent tribunal".
The term unlawful combatant has been used extensively over the past century and has been used in legal literature, military manuals and case law. The US Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the US and defined the term unlawful combatant. The decision states:
quote:
...the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful.
So call them whatever you want, unlawful, non-lawful, unprivledged, or whatever, but they do not fall into one of the categories identified above in GCIII Article 4. So then what does the Geneva Convention proscribe for persons that do not fit the categories of lawful combatants?
According to Article 5 of GCIV:
quote:
Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.
This means the Gitmo detainees are unlawful combatants because they do not fit into the categories proscribed in GCIII Article 4 for lawful combatants. As such, they are held in accordance with and protected under GCIV Article 5. I gave no suggestion that they be treated inhumanely or that they do not fall under Geneva Conventions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 07-08-2005 7:20 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by nator, posted 07-08-2005 3:26 PM Monk has not replied
 Message 139 by Silent H, posted 07-08-2005 5:46 PM Monk has not replied
 Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 12:30 PM Monk has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 137 of 301 (222636)
07-08-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Monk
07-08-2005 11:17 AM


Re: Enemy Combatants
quote:
This means the Gitmo detainees are unlawful combatants because they do not fit into the categories proscribed in GCIII Article 4 for lawful combatants. As such, they are held in accordance with and protected under GCIV Article 5. I gave no suggestion that they be treated inhumanely or that they do not fall under Geneva Conventions.
The Bush Administration had to be sued and ordered by the courts to allow the Gitmo people access to legal council.
It seems they are not that concerned with paying close attention to the Geneva conventions.
And this will ultimately lose us a lot of legitimacy of any claim to be the "leaders of the free world", and will also make terrorism worse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Monk, posted 07-08-2005 11:17 AM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NosyNed, posted 07-08-2005 3:37 PM nator has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 138 of 301 (222640)
07-08-2005 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by nator
07-08-2005 3:26 PM


The Geneva Rules
It seems they are not that concerned with paying close attention to the Geneva conventions.
So? What does that change? Are the gitmo guys still not "unlawful combatants"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by nator, posted 07-08-2005 3:26 PM nator has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 139 of 301 (222676)
07-08-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Monk
07-08-2005 11:17 AM


Re: Enemy Combatants
Technically doesn't "unlawful combatant" mean "criminal combatant" and so that they are criminals, which is why whatever behavior got them into trouble can be addressed via court trials?
In any case, I wonder what we demanded early AQ members and the Mujhadeen fighters be considered by Geneva Conventions when captured by the Soviets?
I don't know off hand, but it would be interesting to know for relevant argument here regarding consistency on what they count as.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Monk, posted 07-08-2005 11:17 AM Monk has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 140 of 301 (222819)
07-09-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Monk
07-08-2005 11:17 AM


I never said any of this. I said they are unlawful enemy combatants. That’s what I said crash, nothing more.
Oh, come on. How dumb do you think I am? You've continually argued that their "unlawful enemy combatant" status sets them outside of protections against coercive, torturous interrogation.
So you take this one sentence from me and run it into all sorts of things.
All sorts of things that you've said before. What, you think I didn't remember?
Wikipedia goes on to provide some clarification that I agree with:
If you'll read more closely, you'll see that the Wikipedia article actually contradicts your stance:
quote:
The critical distinction is that a "lawful combatant" (defined above) cannot be held personally responsible for acts prosecuting that combat, unless they commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. And if captured, they have to be treated as prisoners of war - basically they can be detained (more humane than killing them), but must be provided for, treated with respect, and so on.
If a lawful combatant cannot be held personally responsible for acts prosecuting that combat, then the logical consequence of that is that an unlawful combatant can be held so responsible; in other words, can be charged with crimes, etc.
What do we call someone who commits crimes? A criminal. Unlawful combatants are criminals, Monk.
Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment
What do we call people who are tried and punished for committing crimes? Criminals.
Unlawful combatants are criminals. Possibly war criminals. We try them via military tribunal because they're outside of a functional civil jurisdiction, not because they're not criminals.
It was suggested that they be tried and punished, and you disagreed. Why on Earth you tried to support your position with the articles of the Geneva Conventions that literally call for their trial and punishment is beyond me. Illiteracy, perhaps? I think you can take classes for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Monk, posted 07-08-2005 11:17 AM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Monk, posted 07-14-2005 7:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 141 of 301 (223822)
07-14-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 12:30 PM


Hi crash,
I forgot about this one, sorry about not getting back sooner.
Oh, come on. How dumb do you think I am? You've continually argued that their "unlawful enemy combatant" status sets them outside of protections against coercive, torturous interrogation. All sorts of things that you've said before. What, you think I didn't remember?
Remember what? Which post? What are you talking about?
What do we call someone who commits crimes? A criminal. Unlawful combatants are criminals, Monk. What do we call people who are tried and punished for committing crimes? Criminals. Unlawful combatants are criminals. Possibly war criminals.
This seems to be a touchy issue for you this criminal designation.
We try them via military tribunal because they're outside of a functional civil jurisdiction, not because they're not criminals.
But you see that is precisely why I wouldn’t call them criminals. Because they are outside a functional civil jurisdiction. The term criminal is commonly associated with civil jurisdictions. Please, you don’t have to post a definition, I know what it means. I just think it’s confusing to the general public to label them criminals because that would imply they are entitled to civil trials instead of military tribunals. POW’s are not treated the same way nor do they have the same rights as US criminals under civil jurisdiction.
So we have lawful combatants, unlawful combatants, and POW’s all of which are treated in various ways by the Geneva conventions. In some ways they are like US civil criminals, but in other ways they are not. So I wouldn’t throw a broad umbrella out there and call all of them criminals. I believe there are relevant distinctions between these groups that need to be taken into account.
It was suggested that they be tried and punished, and you disagreed.
No I didn’t. I thought I laid out my position very clearly by agreeing with the Wikipedia definition of lawful combatant. There is no definition for unlawful combatant in the GC, but the GC gives guidance as to how to treat those individuals who do not meet the lawful combatant criteria, I agree with this.
Why on Earth you tried to support your position with the articles of the Geneva Conventions that literally call for their trial and punishment is beyond me. Illiteracy, perhaps? I think you can take classes for that.
Here is what I said upstream:
quote:
This means the Gitmo detainees are unlawful combatants because they do not fit into the categories proscribed in GCIII Article 4 for lawful combatants. As such, they are held in accordance with and protected under GCIV Article 5. I gave no suggestion that they be treated inhumanely or that they do not fall under Geneva Conventions.
Why does this stance make me illiterate? Why do you disagree with my position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 12:30 PM crashfrog has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 142 of 301 (223931)
07-15-2005 1:11 PM


iranian "democracy", bin Laden loses support; the eseential truth about neo-con
The neo-con movement is not at all as it is being characterized here. Essentially, it is a movement that believes demcoracy brings peace. As such, it supports the classical idealism of the US, a nation born of a democratic revolution, a nation that saved european democracy in WW 11, saved the world from anti-democratic Communism, and now seeks to save the world from anti-Democratic fascist islamism.
I recognize no posters here will agree with me, and I see no point getting into a futile debate about it. I'll leave my opinion on record, and leave it as that.
A new poll in the Arab world shows that bin laden has lost substantial support. He was right that people are drawn to "the strong horse," especially in the Islamic world. And now, thanks to the US, he is preceived as the weak horse, and paying the price. There is another factor, too. Islamist bombings in iraq and elsewhere have driven a wedge between Islamists and other Muslims, the majority, like the iraqi majority that supports the rise of democracy in their nation and who, therefore, despise the islamists who are trying to sabotage it.
In another thread last week, someone was discussing iranian democracy and its reformist katami. Here are two excellent articles by my favourite write on iran, Tehari, on the subjects.
THE BEST OF A BAD CHOICE
by Amir Taheri
Arab News
July 4, 2005
Imagine a Martian arriving in Tehran these days to observe the presidential election. The first thing he would remark is the low key in which the campaign is fought. With only a week to polling day, there is little sense of election fever. None of the candidates is holding mass rallies, ostensibly for security reasons, and few have bothered to visit the provinces to seek votes. The exercise looks more like a beauty parade with the candidates trying to catch the attention of the only person whose vote really counts: The "Supreme Guide", Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
Our Martian might notice other facts.
There are eight candidates in the list approved by the "Supreme Guide". Almost 1000 other wannabes, including several former dignitaries of the regime, were told they didn't qualify. The candidates are all men, although women account for 52.1 percent of the population, according to the latest census. The average age of the candidates is 62 while two-thirds of the 45 million electors are under 30.
All the eight candidates are government employees with civil service or military careers.
Two are mullas who have branched into politics. Three others are sons of mullas, although the Shiite clergy consists of around 300,000 men in a population of 70 million.
Five candidates have a military background as former or active members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, a parallel army created by the late Ayatollah Khomeini.
Our Martian may be forgiven for forming the impression that the eight are siblings.
With the exception of the two mullas, they all wear the same kind of "khaksari" style clothes, that is to say suits that, although of costly fabric, are made to look scruffy, almost proletarian.
The candidates also use a vocabulary of around 80 to 100 words and phrases that sounds more like group-speak than political lexicon.
The substance of what they say is also similar.
They keep repeating that the system established in Iran by Khomeini is the best that mankind could imagine.
"Our system is the envy (of peoples) all over the world," says Mahdi Karrubi one of the two mullas in the race.
"Our Islamic Republic is a model for Islam, indeed for mankind," insists Ali-Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the other mulla standing for the presidency.
Other candidates express similar sentiments.
And, yet, they also say that the country has reached "an impasse", and that the regime is heading for "systemic crisis."
"We must put the revolution behind us," says Rafsanjani.
"We cannot build the future on old foundations," says Mostafa Moin, a former education minister and candidate of the remnants of the coalition that backed Muhammad Khatami eight years ago.
All the candidates pay tribute to Khomeini whom they describe as "the man who revived Islam" or "the leader who saved humanity from darkness."
They call on the voters to go to the polls to "give joy to the soul" of the late ayatollah, not to back a political program.
This is not surprising because none of the eight has presented a coherent platform. All that they offer is vague promises to curb corruption, to create jobs for the mass of unemployed youths, to house the homeless, and tame inflation.
It is not only the domestic policies of the candidates that remain a mystery. Although commentators are looking for "moderates" and "hard-liners", statements made by the eight show that none has a clear vision of the kind of foreign policy that the nation needs.
This is not surprising if only because the president has little power to set the agenda. That power belongs to the "Supreme Guide" who has the final word on all matters, with a small role allocated to the Islamic Consultative Assembly and the Council of the Custodians of the Constitution.
Because none of the crucial issues could be openly debated in a system that does not tolerate serious debate, the candidates are forced to speak obliquely, dropping a hint here and a hint there, and depending on their persona rather than discourse to win support. A Persian proverb says: Look at what is said, not who is saying it! In this campaign, however, the advice is: Look at who is saying, not at what is said!
On that basis the candidates could be divided into three groups.
In the first we find Ali Larijani, the former head of the state-owned Radio and Television and Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nezhad, the current mayor of Tehran. They believe that the source of the problems that the nation is facing is the weakening of the "revolutionary spirit." They wish to build cultural walls around Iran to save it from "invasion and ultimate conquest" by the global culture which they see as a concoction of the American "Great Satan."
In the second group we find Muhammad-Baqer Qalibaf, a former police chief, Mohsen Rezai, a former commander of the Revolutionary Guard, Mohsen Mehralizadeh, a former Revolutionary Guardsman, and Rafsanjani. These are ambitious politicians with business interests who wish to be under the limelight. If our Martian is kind he would call them pragmatics rather than opportunists. Don't be surprised if one of them, Rezai, drops out in favor of another member of the quartet, after making a deal.
The third group consists of Karrubi and Moin.
Our Martian might label them "lost souls." These are disillusioned Khomeinists who have not mastered the courage to admit that they were wrong to worship the radical ayatollah. They dream of Khomeinism without its essential ingredients of tyranny and terror something like chicken curry without chicken and curry. They know that the system cannot be reformed but still hope to reform it without undermining its foundations.
So, who is the best choice? Our Martian might ask.
The answer is that, as far as the long-term interests of Iran are concerned, the best choice is not on the ballot. What is left is a pragmatic choice.
Karrubi and Moin are out because they represent pale copies of Khatami whose failure is now acknowledged even by his younger brother Muhammad-Reza. Either Rafsanjani or Qalibaf could help the system weather its current crisis.
Rafsanjani could reassure the business community, mobilize the bureaucracy for cosmetic reforms, and avoid heightening tension in Iran's foreign relations.
Qalibaf, who is 44, might energize the estimated 3.5 million men who have so far served in the Revolutionary Guard, and speak to younger generations who feel alienated. The election either of Qalibaf or Larijani' would be a signal that Khamenei has decided to assume direct control.
With the Majlis and other organs of the regime now controlled by Khamenei the conquest of the presidency by his camp could end establishment's internecine feuds. It would send a signal to the people of Iran, and the outside world, that they are dealing with a radical regime pursuing messianic dreams.
And that, paradoxically, may be the best of a bad choice. It is almost always better to deal with a regime that is true to itself than one practicing taqiyah (dissimulation
-----------------------------------------
THE KHATAMI EXPERIENCE
by Amir Taheri
Arab News
July 4, 2005
As Iran held its ninth presidential election yesterday, few might have spared a thought for the incumbent Muhammad Khatami.
And yet who can forget the excitement that Khatami's first election in 1997 stirred around the world? Some Islamists saw his victory as a sign that politics and religion could mix without producing a deadly brew. At the other end of the spectrum some liberals tried to persuade themselves that even a despotic regime was not impervious to reform.
During the current presidential campaign, however, Khatami's tenure has been used by all the eight officially approved candidates as a warning rather than a model. Radical Khomeinist candidates Ali Larijani and Muhammad-Baqer Qalibaf spoke of the Khatami presidency as "eight wasted years" while Mostafa Moin and Mahdi Karrubi, who were in the field as candidates of the pro-reform groups, described the outgoing president as a failure.
Outside the establishment, many Iranians see Khatami as a cynical opportunist who was assigned a certain role by the so-called "tasmimgiran" (decision-makers) who pull the strings in Tehran.
"Khatami deceived us all," says dissident journalist Akbar Ganji.
"Khatami was a puppet activated by the ruling mullas," says one of his former ministers on condition of anonymity.
Both views are inaccurate and unfair.No one is deceived without wanting to be deceived, at least not twice. And yet more than 20 million Iranians voted for Khatami both in 1997 and in 2001. Nor is there any evidence that Khatami was manipulated by the "tasmimgiran".
The Khatami phenomenon is not unique to Iran. Other despotic systems have produced versions of it at different times.
The Khatami phenomenon emerges when a revolutionary regime which has been transformed into a despotic system feels the need to change course in order to negotiate a dangerous bend on its course. One sees a version of it in the pre-terror phase of the French Revolution when Danton and company practiced politics through oratory.
In the Bolshevik Revolution the Khatami phenomenon took the shape of the NEP concocted by Bukharin and marketed by Lenin. The version produced by the Chinese Revolution came with the slogan "Let One Hundred Flowers Blossom!" with Liu Shao-ji as front-man. In the 1960s Janos Kadar in Hungry and Alexander Dubcek in Czechoslovakia represented versions of the Khatami phenomenon.
In almost every case such phenomena ended in personal tragedy for the men involved, and greater terror and repression for society as a whole.
To be sure this does not mean that Iran is heading for greater terror and repression or that Khatami may be in personal danger. It is likely that the Iranian system is not yet done with the Khatami phenomenon and that we may see it prolonged under a new president, whoever he turns out to be, for some time yet. In other words the possibility of a Khatami-bis presidency should not be discarded.
All revolutions produce types like Khatami.
These are individuals who believe that things happen simply by wanting them to happen. The technical term for their philosophy is voluntarism which regards societies as blank sheets on which idealistic elites can draw the image of their "perfect" society. Voluntarism cannot admit that the root cause of all problems a society faces may well be the very revolution that it idealizes.
"We wish to safeguard our revolution," Dubeck often insisted.
"The problem is not with socialism but its practice," Kadar liked to say.
Because idealism and optimism are twins, all versions of the Khatami phenomenon ultimately appear as real-life incarnations of Dr. Pangloss, one of Voltaire's greatest characters.
Pangloss is hired as schoolmaster for Candid, the son of a nobleman in Westphalia. Pangloss may criticize details of life in the Baron's castle. But, as a teacher of metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology, he takes delight in proving that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle is the most magnificent of all castles, and the Baroness the prettiest of all possible ladies.
"It is demonstrable," Pangloss lectures, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged; and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."
Khatami, who went on 63 foreign trips to 34 countries in eight years, never quoted Pangloss. Instead he tried to impress his audiences with quotations from Hobbes, Hegel, Locke, Feuerbach, Nietzsche, and Habermas, among others, and then proceeded to tell an incredulous world that the bizarre system crated by the late Ayatollah Khomeini was "the perfect model of government" for the whole of mankind.
Khatami first won election with a list of 10 promises the first of which was to "restore the rule of law."
That did not happen.
His presidency witnessed the notorious chain-killings that saw the brutal murder of two dozen dissidents and intellectuals, including Dariush Foruhar, a former minister in Khomeini's first government, and his wife Parvaneh who had their heads chopped off and displayed on the mantelpiece of the reception room in their house.
Khatami promised to bring the perpetrators to justice and failed. He also failed to find and punish those who murdered Zahra Kazemi, a Canadian-Iranian photo-journalist, in the notorious Evin Prison in Tehran. Nor did Khatami lift a finger to prevent the closing of more than 100 newspaper and magazines, many of which had fought for his election, and to prevent the illegal arrests of dozens of journalists.
Finally, Khatami looked the other way while the student movement, which had initially formed to back his promised reforms, was crushed and thousands of activists jailed.
Khatami's second promise was to "revive the national economy".
That, too, has not happened. Iran is more dependent on oil revenues today than eight years ago. And, setting aside the recent rise in oil prices, the average income per head per annum is four percent lower than 1997 in real terms.
None of all that, however, could be blamed on Khatami because under the existing constitution the president is little more than a kind of prime minister with largely ceremonial functions in an absolute monarchy.
I know I might incur the wrath of many Iranians by saying this. But I believe that the Khatami experience was useful for Iran. It showed that Khomeinism is incompatible with democracy and that the Islamic Republic cannot become what it was not intended to be.
Since Khatami likes to quote Nietzsche rather than any Muslim philosopher, let us also enlist the support of the author of " Thus Spoke Zarathustra".
Nietzsche says : What does not kill me, makes me stronger!
This is true of Iran at the end of the Khatami experience.
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 143 of 301 (223932)
07-15-2005 1:25 PM


More on neocon success
OSAMA FADES AS DEMOCRACY GAINS
An opinion poll in six Muslim countries (http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../07/14/AR2005071401030.html)
shows surprising results for attitudes about Islamists and Western-style democracy. Support for Osama bin Laden has fallen to half of what it had been in previous surveys, while support for democratization and freedom has grown enormously:
Osama bin Laden's standing has dropped significantly in some key Muslim countries, while support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence has "declined dramatically," according to a new survey released today.
In a striking finding, predominantly Muslim populations in a sampling of six North African, Middle East and Asian countries are also as alarmed as Western nations about Islamic extremism, which is now seen as a threat in their own nations too, the poll found. ...
Compared with previous surveys, the new poll also found growing majorities or pluralities of Muslims surveyed now say democracy can work in their countries and is not just a political system for the West. Support for democracy was in the 80 percent range in Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon and Morocco and the highest score at 43 percent in Pakistan and 48 percent in Turkey, where significant numbers were unsure.
"They are not just paying lip service. They are saying they specifically want a fair judiciary, freedom of expression and more than one party to participate in elections. It wasn't just a vague concept," said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center and director of the project. "U.S. and Western ideas about democracy have been globalized and are in the Muslim world."
This demonstrates that Bush's policies of attacking terrorists where they have hidden themselves and demanding the liberalization of the Arabic world has had a huge, positive impact. Despite the carping of how Iraq has created terrorists in Muslim nations, the unmasking of Islamofascism as a bloodthirsty movement perfectly happy with killing fellow Muslims by the hundreds to make its point has destroyed its credibility. In contrast, the success of the Iraqi elections, followed by the popular democratic uprising against Syria in Lebanon and the demand for free election in Egypt, has shown Arabs and Muslims that democracy and pluralism works.
Democratization brings hope and a measure of control over one's life, two qualities that have long been absent from the tyrannies and kleptocracies of the Middle East. Until Iraq and Afghanistan showed it could work for Arabs as well as Europeans, the subjects of these autocracies had neither nor any glimmer of possibility of achieving them. Now that they see their cousins able to govern themselves through free elections and hold their leaders accountable for their actions, they understand the futility of suicide attacks and terrorism. Just like anyone else, they will choose freedom and hope over oppression and death.
This is how we will win the war on Islamofascist terror -- not by winning big battles, although that necessarily has to happen to set the stage for these successes. We will win the war by discrediting the enemy among their own people, who will one day utterly reject their nihilistic ideologies. That day, apparently, is almost here.
SUNNIS CAMPAIGN FOR DEMOCRACY, PARTICIPATION
After seeing themselves politically marginalized for boycotting what turned out to be hugely popular elections, Iraq's Sunni leaders have now begun to urge their communities to take part in the electoral process:
In mosques, conferences and on the street, some Sunni Arab leaders are rallying members of their once dominant community to join forces and participate in upcoming elections in a bid to find their place in the new Iraq. ...
"Boycotting the last elections ... deprived the people of opportunities," said Sheik Adul Jabbar Qadri, preacher at the Fattah mosque in the largely Sunni town of Beiji. "Now everyone feels this was a mistake and that all Iraqis should participate."
Qadri has been using his weekly Friday sermons to encourage Sunnis to cast ballots. "We also urged them to put their differences aside and to keep away from violence," he said.
Qadri said a recent meeting in Beiji brought together tribal sheiks, clerics and local dignitaries to support calls for contesting the votes.
Laith al-Sumaidei, who owns a media production company in Beiji, said his firm was designing posters to encourage a Sunni turnout. One of them shows Iraqis from different ethnic and religious groups, holding ballots that read: "Yes to freedom" and "Yes to democracy."
The Sunnis continue to discover that their Kurdish and Shi'ite countrymen have almost fully embraced democracy as the shared future of Iraq, and that the so-called insurgency has not dented their enthusiasm for self-rule. Their ability to carve out even a representative role for the minority Sunnis, who once dominated Iraq under Saddam, was severely hampered by their ill-chosen strategy of intransigence in January. Not only did they wind up with an abnormally small contingent in the Assembly to look after their interests, but they made themselves into an easy scapegoat for all that remains wrong in Iraqi life, including what many saw as a tacit (and not-so-tacit) endorsement of terrorist attacks that mostly kill Iraqis these days.
They managed to get better representation for themselves than they deserved at the constitutional convention, mostly because Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani has enough political skills to understand that the Sunnis have to take some ownership of its final outcome. That requires the Sunnis to start supporting democracy as the future for Iraqi political expression. This shows them taking the first steps towards a broad-based endorsement of freedom and self-government.
This will severely undermine the terrorists who have kept the Sunnis believing that they could once again achieve supremacy through bombs and bullets in Iraq. Most of Iraq has turned against the foreigners of the Zarqawi/al-Qaeda network. If the Sunnis pack it in, the country will demand an end to the insurgency, and Zarqawi's lunatics will shortly run out of places to hide.
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Monk, posted 07-15-2005 2:51 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 144 of 301 (223942)
07-15-2005 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by CanadianSteve
07-15-2005 1:25 PM


Re: More on neocon success
Nice Post. Notice how this kind of story won't get picked up in many media outlets.
And there are posters here who agree with you. We are simply in the minority. But I suspect there are many lurkers who agree with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 1:25 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 3:05 PM Monk has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 145 of 301 (223946)
07-15-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Monk
07-15-2005 2:51 PM


Re: More on neocon success
Yes, Monk, i should have remembered that I am not entirely alone here. I enjoy your always intelligent and well-informed posts.
There is no other way to put it, other than a travesty of responsible journalism...that our mainstream press has entirely ignored the fact, THE FACT, that the majority of iraqis are pleased that the US threw out a tyrant and is substituting democracy in his place. Similarly, the press ignores the fact that Iraq is igniting a democratic revolution in the Islamic world, just as intended...by the neocons. This is one of the most incredible stories in all of history - the age-old battle between Islam and the Judeo-Christian west may come to a peaceful, democratic, conclusion. If so, Bush will go down as one of the greatest of all world leaders, another Churchill (if without the eloquence). And the incredibly small-minded, petty left is missing it. History will judge them very, very badly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Monk, posted 07-15-2005 2:51 PM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 3:56 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 146 of 301 (223949)
07-15-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by CanadianSteve
07-15-2005 3:05 PM


Re: More on neocon success
that our mainstream press has entirely ignored the fact, THE FACT, that the majority of iraqis are pleased that the US threw out a tyrant and is substituting democracy in his place.
I am unsure where you got that. Everyone that I have ever heard agrees that Iraqis are glad Hussein is out and they get a chance for a new gov't.
That is not the same as them liking how we handled the affair, or our meddling in their govt so that it is not in fact a real democracy and instead is a "representational" democracy to suit US interests.
Neither is it the same as ensuring it will stay together or that there will no longer be terrorist threats emerging from Iraq. Indeed one could say it is only now that terrorist threats directly from Iraq can emerge.
But no one is saying that Iraqis are not happy to be free of Hussein.
Indeed I am a producer of a documentary on Iraq by an Iraqi regarding postwar Iraq as felt by real Iraqis. The directors family was divided, some fleeing Iraq and some staying, because of the Iraq-Iran war. The family that stayed were persecuted by Hussein, and are certainly glad he's gone, as well as those who can now return.
Similarly, the press ignores the fact that Iraq is igniting a democratic revolution in the Islamic world, just as intended...by the neocons. This is one of the most incredible stories in all of history
This they should be ignoring because it is convenient fiction for neocons. What democratic revolution? Iraq had a democracy installed which crumbled, then Saddam was propped up in the new "democracy" which was supposed to be great until he turned out to be a madman, and now we've knocked him out and they are now getting a "representational" democracy installed, which will not have full power if it conflicts with US interests.
Where is there a change in the region because of this?
Oh yes, we DID kick out the Taliban, which the people there had wanted for some time, but people like the Bushes and Cheneys who had business ties with them, did not want seen as bad guys and did not question their tyrannical leadership... until 911 of course.
You know kind of like how we are against democracy in Uzbekistan and Pakistan and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and...
If so, Bush will go down as one of the greatest of all world leaders, another Churchill (if without the eloquence).
Did anyone else feel Churchill roll over in his grave? My windows even rattled.
If they make a statue, I hope its one of him holding hands with the Saudi prince. And on it they can etch the Prince's words praising how the US has a monarchy in the Bush's though the citizens don't realize it.
History will judge them very, very badly.
How would you know, none of you guys seem to have the first clue about history: recent, general, or especially specific to that region.
Man I certainly hope the age old battle between your two decrepit mythologies does come to a peaceful end. That would be great if its democratic too... I'm not a fuedal kind of guy. But I'm guessing the invasion of Iraq will not be the deciding factor at all, nor the "beginning" of that resolution, unless someone wants to be very arbitrary.
And I am uncertain how you credit any of this as peaceful when we killed over 10000 innocent people and continue to kill more, to make sure the new govt gets in.
Oh yes, and when this is all done, when everyone has agreed to live in harmony and democracy, when exactly will Jesus come to kill all nonXians and establish his kingdom on earth?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 3:05 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:20 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 260 by gnojek, posted 07-19-2005 12:44 PM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 147 of 301 (223954)
07-15-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Silent H
07-15-2005 3:56 PM


Re: More on neocon success
as always, Holmes, there is no way we can agree.
I didn't mean to say that it is not a given that the majority of Iraqis are pleased hussein is gone. What i was saying is that press gives the impression that the US is an imperialist, aggressive invader whom Iraqis despise and never wanted there. That, in turn, suggests that they'd rather have had hussein in place, than have the US come in and free them of him. It also implies that the insurgency is an Iraqi-based movement meant to free iraqis from American occupation. I've listened to liberal talk shows in both the US and Canada, and that is the overwhelming understanding of events there that callers have. And that they got from the mainstream press. The poll i cited should be headline news everywhere. Bet it won't be, because that would demonstrate US success, G-d forbid.
Iraq was never a democracy. The Sunnis took power at its modern day birth after WW 1, and never relinquished power. (Perhaps you're thinking of Iran, which did have a nascent democracy in the early 50's.) what democratic revolution? Well, aside from iraq itself, Lebanon just had elctions, there's all sorts of talk about democracy that didn't happen bfore, there is some liberaliztion in Egypy and elsewhere. As i said, it is a spark, the flames have not yet broken out.
The US is for democracy everywhere. At the same time, there is realism that instant democracy everywhere may mean the islamists coming to power - which would be okay, except that they'll immediately terminate democracy, as they were about to do in Algeria. However, as the poll also shows, most Islamic peoples are becoming cynical about islamism and more pro-demcoracy. soon enough, any Islamic democracy will not vote Islamists into power. Again, iraq is a big part of that shift.
And, again, history will judge leftists very, very badly - and it has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. In fact, many of the key neo-cons are affirmed atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 3:56 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Jazzns, posted 07-15-2005 4:29 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 150 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 4:40 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 148 of 301 (223960)
07-15-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by CanadianSteve
07-15-2005 4:20 PM


Re: More on neocon success
Saying the neocons have nothing to do with Christianity is like saying that Baskin Robins has nothing to do with vanilla ice cream.
It may not be what they are ALL about but they sure do use it a lot!

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:20 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:36 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 261 by gnojek, posted 07-19-2005 12:51 PM Jazzns has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 149 of 301 (223962)
07-15-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jazzns
07-15-2005 4:29 PM


Re: More on neocon success
If you believe that, then you are very seriously misinformed. In fact, the majority of the founding neocons are Jews (which is why anti-Semities now use "neo-con" as code for dirty jew), although the movement has grown rapidly and gained the support of many, if not most, conservatives and a few true liberals (JFK residuals).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jazzns, posted 07-15-2005 4:29 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Jazzns, posted 07-15-2005 4:54 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 150 of 301 (223965)
07-15-2005 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by CanadianSteve
07-15-2005 4:20 PM


Re: More on neocon success
as always, Holmes, there is no way we can agree.
Why not? It seems we agree most Iraqis are glad Hussein is gone, and that the insurgency is not a sign that most Iraqis favor a return to Hussein.
Iraq was never a democracy.
See we agree on that too. The Brits created something they called a democracy that would be a jewel for the whole region (which mortified Lawrence... of Arabia fame), but it wasn't. Then Saddam propped himself up in what Western leaders believed was a final return to full secular democracy (remember elections were supposed to be there). Like Musharaf now, he didn't do what was expected and stayed in power and became a tyrant.
Now we have knocked him out and are installing what we are calling a democracy which will be a jewel for the whole region (Lawrence where art thou?)... and as you freely admit, that despite the name...
there is realism that instant democracy everywhere may mean the islamists coming to power - which would be okay, except that they'll immediately terminate democracy
And thus Iraq does not have, once again, a real democracy. Honestly though I do hope it works out for them and I do support finishing the job now that we toppled Hussein. I just like busting all you Bush apologists' balls over the fictions you create.
Lebanon just had elctions,
Yep, they had elections. Okay it has nothing to do with Iraq, just like the Palestinian elections had nothing to do with Iraq, but elections sure did happen.
liberaliztion in Egypy and elsewhere.
Sure, this is also true, and has been so for some amount of time.
As i said, it is a spark, the flames have not yet broken out.
Yep, there are sparks, and certainly this is a time where sparks are jumping all over Iraq, some fires are breaking out there too, though more of a literal nature.
We just disagree on these things:
The US is for democracy everywhere.
I now I like it, but it seems to me many in this administration don't like it at all, especially if it gets in the way. There are too many counterexamples of us supporting dictatorships, to make that kind of claim with a straight face.
Again, iraq is a big part of that shift.
But there is no shift, there's just sparks and they've been going on for a while. Heck nonfundies were fighting fundies in Afghanistan well before Bush Jr ever saw office.
And, again, history will judge leftists very, very badly
But how can you know? Maybe history will like leftists. And will they be teaching history in God's kingdom? Why won't you address the second coming?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:20 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:55 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 153 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-15-2005 4:57 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 154 by Monk, posted 07-15-2005 4:59 PM Silent H has replied

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